Man, am I having a bad day (valve clearance question)

[Flash]

First, I didn't go into work today b/c I was sick. Then, this evening I decide to get off my arse and work on my GS. If you think you've had it bad, then read on:

unfinished task #1
- I finished chiseling the new opening for my newly acquired Pingel petcock/adapter plate, but they won't thread together completely :dunno: (have to send it back)

unfinished task #2
- went to clean my carbs, but I need to order some diaphragms before I can put it together

unfinished task #3
- went to check the valve clearances while following the Clymer manual, but I ended up with more questions than answers....


QUESTION #1


QUESTION #2


QUESTION #3 & 4
If the answer to the previous question is YES, then how is it possible to check B when the lobe is facing straight down and C is slightly below hroizontal? (You would think you should check each lobe in a specific position) Does the feeler gauge need to slide out the other side?


I feel like I haven't been productive at all today. And to top it off I think at least lobe A (with the notches facing outward) is too tight :x

[Blueknyt]

the "Notches" are on the END of the cams. they should face each other, looking like a C and a backward C.   heavy filmy oil Concrete up there is normal.aslong as the vent system isnt pluged.   new Diaphrams? you have holes in them?

[Kerry]

went to check the valve clearances while following the Clymer manual, but I ended up with more questions than answers....

Remind me to scan in the 2 pages from the Haynes manual some day....

QUESTION #1  Is this oil residue normal?

Yep.  And so is the "Brillo pad".  

QUESTION #2  Are these the notches we are trying to match up?

Blueknyt covered this one.  Perhaps you can take a photo of the two 'C's facing each other?

QUESTION #3 & 4 [...]
You would think you should check each lobe in a specific position

The Haynes manual has you rotate the crank with a wrench and then measure more than one clearance at a time, even though the cam lobes are pointing in different directions.  But, (from a PM I just wrote to Mk1inCali):

I did it that way the first time, but lately I have just used the "Srinath method":

* Pull the spark plugs

* Put the bike in 6th gear (or so)

* Rotate the rear wheel in its usual direction until the cam lobe for the "target valve" points directly away from the shim below it.  (I believe Srinath's actual phrase was "points to the sky".)[/list:u]

Does the feeler gauge need to slide out the other side?

NO.  That is, you don't need to push them through until you can see them poking way out.  But they DO need to at least pass the "halfway point" where the lobe is closest to the shim.  Your fingers will tell you....

I feel like I haven't been productive at all today. And to top it off I think at least lobe A (with the notches facing outward) is too tight :x

Sounds productive to me!     In my experience, if one valve is tight it will be an exhaust valve.  You could almost say that if two valves are tight they will BOTH be exhaust valves.   :dunno:

[Rema1000]

The whole "point the cam cutouts towards each other" thing isn't too helpful.  You end-up checking one valve pointing at 9 o'clock, one at 12, and one at 3 o'clock.  Ideally, the lobe should have the same clearance at all 3, but this is not the case on my bike.

If you are an optimist, just check each cam seperately, with each lobe pointing at the sky (12 o'clock).  Good clearance at 12 o'clock means that the valve is fully closing.

If you're a pessimist, check each cam with the lobe at 9 o'clock, 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock (which takes a while).  My experience is that some valves are tighter at 9 or 3 than they are at 12.  I would say that ideally, you want enough vavle clearance at the tightest point in the valve rotation.

That said, some people here have reported better results with valve clearance set at the low end of the specifications range.  I think scratch decided to run his slightly under clearance, to get rid of the ticking noise.

[Blueknyt]

Good clearance at 12 o'clock means that the valve is fully closing.

careful on your use of words, 12oclock to engine would be incorect. 12 oclock in relation to the Valve it operates would be more accurate. this places the back radius of the lobe facing the shim for greatest gap. the valves are kinda like 45 degrees in relation to the cyl, and the cyl isnt pointed at 12 either.

follow what the book says is your best bet, atleast untill you reach the poiint of 40W making up about 20% of your blood. :lol:

[Blueknyt]

heres a shot of the cutouts from the how to adjust valves page (with pics)



they are highlighted in yellow.

http://www.gstwin.com/adjust_valves.htm

thats the link to the "how too" on this site

[jamesmcb]

My GS500 has around 17k miles on it and has never had the valve clearance adjusted.  It makes a very subtle pinging, but barely anything noticeable.  Do you think i can wait on getting the valve adjustment done or should I go ahead and get it done now (money is an issue right now so if its not really necessary right now i'd wait).  How many miles till they usually need their first valve adjustment??  lastly, how much do dealer's usually charge to do this?  (I am considering trying to do it myself, but i am very mechanically uninclined and would probably break something, lol)

[scratch]

That said, some people here have reported better results with valve clearance set at the low end of the specifications range.  I think scratch decided to run his slightly under clearance, to get rid of the ticking noise.

Did somebody mention me? Yes, I prefer to run mine on the loose side, but still within specs (.08mm). I'd err on the side of loose to prevent a valve meeting the piston, but you can't go too loose or you'll spit a shim at higher rpm's.

My last valve adjustment was made last month at the 20,000 mile mark (every 4,000 miles), I only had to adjust one shim, and luckily I had the right size. It was the No.2 exhaust, it was tight on the .038 feeler, so I changed out the shim from a 275 to a 270, rotated the crank over a full 360 and remeasured. It now slipped the .076 feeler loosely without allowing the .102 feeler in at all, so I deemed it good. The adjustment before that had me tightening up that same valve from a easy fitting .102 feeler to a loose .038; swapping the same shims in reverse.

Again, valve adjustments should be made every 4,000 miles.

[Kerry]

My GS500 has around 17k miles on it and has never had the valve clearance adjusted.

That's about the same mileage my bike had when I adjusted the valves the first time.  

It makes a very subtle pinging, but barely anything noticeable.  Do you think i can wait on getting the valve adjustment done or should I go ahead and get it done now (money is an issue right now so if its not really necessary right now i'd wait).

You can certainly wait ... but the bike would love you for adjusting it.  :kiss:

How many miles till they usually need their first valve adjustment??

Like scratch (and the manual) says: Every 4000 miles.

lastly, how much do dealer's usually charge to do this?

I haven't ever had it done, but at about 1 hour for 60+ per hour, figure on $70+ dollars after tax.  For which you could buy a valve shim tool (somewhat optional), some decent dial calipers, a set of feeler gauges, and a few replacement shims.  ALL of which you could reuse in another 4000 miles, and another, and another....

(I am considering trying to do it myself, but i am very mechanically uninclined and would probably break something, lol)

Doubtful.  I knew nothing about wrenching on bikes when I got my GS.  Just be deliberate, stay organized, be patient, and start building up a set of tools.  There ARE a few tips and tricks that you will pick up the first time around, but most of it is fairly obvious.

BTW, if you'd like to "try before you buy" I am willing to mail the necessary equipment (and the current collection of cast-off shims) to just about anyone for the cost of my shipping them to you.  jake42 is one (hopefully) happy customer.  Manjul (The_good_guy) is another, although I hand-delivered (and applied) the tools for him.  

Again, the package I sent to jake42 included feeler gauges, the valve tool, dial calipers, a pen-sized telescoping magnetic picker-upper, and several shims.  It cost around $3.85 to send via Priority Mail (each way), and all I ask is that you toss your cast-off shims into the collection.

Interested?

[Flash]

I appreciate all your help guys. I knew yall would come through.

A special thanks to Blueknyt for responding so quickly (at 1:40am no doubt). I actually read your message and eagerly went back into the garage and found "the Notches are on the END of the cams. they should face each other, looking like a C and a backward C"

Well, good news. Three of the four valves are fine (.038mm feeler was fine, but the .051mm feeler would not clear). The bad news is the left exhaust valve is too tight (.038mm feeler would not clear). Next step is to remove the shim myself w/o the special tool and order the correct replacement from the local Suzuki dealer.

More good news. You guys were right. Pingel Customer Service is excellent. The sales guy e-mailed me promptly the next day and told me to ship it to him and he would try to fix the problem or send me out parts that would work. Wow

I love this forum. I can't wait to get my GS500 runnin again.

[Rema1000]

That said, some people here have reported better results with valve clearance set at the low end of the specifications range.  I think scratch decided to run his slightly under clearance, to get rid of the ticking noise.

Did somebody mention me? Yes, I prefer to run mine on the loose side, but still within specs (.08mm). I'd err on the side of loose to prevent a valve meeting the piston

Darn, Scratch; I thought I remembered you choosing to go on the tight side to stop the ticking, but I guess you decided to go on the edge of loose-ness (of which I approve).  It must've been one of the racers who said he went on the verge of overtightness.  My grey matter is not keeping all the bits lined-up in my head like it used-to.  BTW, I approve of keeping the clearance towards the loose end.  We non-racers are more concerned with keeping things working 'till the next adjustment, rather than 110% performance.

[Blueknyt]

i like running the valves alittle on loose side too, things tighten up with heat, so if one day it is hotter then normal, i want that extra smidgen of play.

[Kerry]

The bad news is the left exhaust valve is too tight (.038mm feeler would not clear). Next step is to remove the shim myself w/o the special tool and order the correct replacement

WARNING!

All you know is that the .038mm feeler won't fit.  That's not the same as knowing what the clearance is.  You need to know both the clearance and the current shim thickness before you can determine the correctment replacement shim thickness.

If you can make the "bucket" (or "cam follower", or "shim container") rotate with your fingers then you know the clearance is somewhere above 0.  And if you go down one shim size you'll get an extra .05mm of clearance and you should be OK.  There is a small chance that the new clearance will be between .080mm and .088mm ... right?  Which is undesirably loose.  

On the other hand, if the valve is so tight that you can't turn the "bucket" you don't know HOW tight it is.  Which means you could easily order the wrong shim.  :x  Two of the three bikes I've adjusted had exhaust valves that needed to go down by 2 or 3 or even 4    shim thicknesses.

Here are your options as I see them, in order of desirability (assuming money is more important than convenience):

Option 1
Hopefully at least one of the other shims is thinner than the one on the tight valve.  Find the thinnest one.  Swap it with the tight shim.  (NEVER turn the engine without ALL shims in place!)  Turn the engine over a few times by pulling the rear wheel around.  This will squeeze any oil in the bucket out from under the shim, so your measurement will be more accurate.  Now measure with the feeler blades.  If the clearance is "within spec" then you know which shim thickness to order.

Option 2
Find a feeler blade that's less than or equal to .03mm thick.  (Not very easy to do.)  

Option 3
Tell me your current shim thickness.  I'll see if I have any thinner ones.  If I have one or more thinner shims (of different thicknesses) I'll mail them to you.  If one of the shims fits, great -- keep it.  Send back the rest, along with your too-thick one.  Oh, and reimburse me for shipping them out.  :mrgreen:

Option 4
Find a way to make the current shim a little thinner.  Good luck with this option.    I tried it once, by laying different grits of fine sandpaper down on a flat, cast iron jointer bed and "scrubbing" the shim around in circles and figure-8s for most of an hour.  I took off MAYBE a 10,000th of an inch (~.002mm).  In the end I just put the shim back in.  :dunno:

Option 5
Order one shim.  Wait for it to arrive.  Insert it and turn the engine over a few times.  Measure it.  If the .038mm feeler blade still won't go in, order the next thinnest shim.  Repeat until the blade goes in.

Option 6
Order 2 to 4 shims at the same time - starting at the sizes just thinner than the current shim and going DOWN.  One of them is (almost) guaranteed to be the right size.[/list:u]

[The Buddha]

I run it tight...why, in the 38K I have tortured the bike ... I know when hot the clearance goes up... did it on a hot motor and have the burn marks to prove it... and my valves always go loose... never go tight. They have gotten ~ 2 thicker sizes... on all. If I can spin the bucket freely with the cam pointing away from the bucket... I'll call it good sometimes. I also measure the shim that comes out, add the thickness of the guage that fit, and drop in a shim that is very close to, but under that thickness ... whooo hooo digital calipers...
Cool.
Srinath.

[scratch]

I will say it would be ideal to run your intake clearances a little tighter than the exhaust side, the reason being to optimize the cooling effect of the incoming air/fuel charge to help cool the intake valve. The exhaust side I would still run loose to optimize the time that the valve rests against the valve seat to transfer heat to the head and maximizing fuel economy through not allowing unburnt fuel to escape so quickly past the exhaust valve. Also, the hot exhaust gases passing by the exhaust valve heat up the valve, causing it to expand; I would like to minimize the amount of tme that the exhaust valve has to endure that by having the valve on the loose side.

Rema1000, I think you may recall me stating something like the above.

[jamesmcb]

I haven't ever had it done, but at about 1 hour for 60+ per hour, figure on $70+ dollars after tax.  For which you could buy a valve shim tool (somewhat optional), some decent dial calipers, a set of feeler gauges, and a few replacement shims.  ALL of which you could reuse in another 4000 miles, and another, and another....

Wow!!  well a Suzuki dealership here in Raleigh, NC quoted me at around $250 for a valve adjustment......I definately think I am going to try to do it myself, but probably not till I do my next oil change so I can do it all at the same time (i just changed the oil so it'll be another 4k miles before I do it).  I cant find any other motorcycle repair shops besides the Suzuki dealer's....I just dont know where to look....and the dealer's charge an arm and a leg to do anything.  I guess thats why its nice to have a messageboard of knowledgable folks to help guide you through doing it yourself...  

BTW, if you'd like to "try before you buy" I am willing to mail the necessary equipment (and the current collection of cast-off shims) to just about anyone for the cost of my shipping them to you.  jake42 is one (hopefully) happy customer.  Manjul (The_good_guy) is another, although I hand-delivered (and applied) the tools for him.  

Interested?

I dont understand what you mean by the try before you buy thing.  You own the tools and you'll mail them to me to try if i pay shipping??  And then if I want to buy them do I buy them from you?  Or do I try them, send them back, and then go to the store and buy some?

[Kerry]

Wow!!  well a Suzuki dealership here in Raleigh, NC quoted me at around $250 for a valve adjustment

I wonder if they just charge a flat rate for ALL valve adjustments, from a 16-valve 4-banger to our easy-to-work-on 4-valve 2 banger.  :dunno:

I dont understand what you mean by the try before you buy thing.  You own the tools and you'll mail them to me to try if i pay shipping??  And then if I want to buy them do I buy them from you?  Or do I try them, send them back, and then go to the store and buy some?

I meant the latter.  I definitely want my tools back -- so I can loan them out again!  

[jamesmcb]

That's about the same mileage my bike had when I adjusted the valves the first time.  

Like scratch (and the manual) says: Every 4000 miles.

Interested?

Kerry, you said that you didnt get your valves adjusted for the first time untill around 17,000 miles right?  so I take it until then you dont have to get it done as frequently....but after your first one you are supposed to get it done every 4000 miles right?  Am i understanding this right, or are you always supposed to do it every 4000 miles, you just didnt do your first one till 17,000.  is it always 4000 miles between them or does that vary on drivin conditions?

[Flash]

Ok. New dilemma.

The manual states to rotate the shim bucket so as to position the notch for easy shim removal. I can easily rotate the intake valve buckets, but the two exhaust valve buckets won't budge. What's even more perplexing is the fact that the right exhaust valve has at least the minimum spec valve clearance :dunno:

I figure, unless someone has any ideas on this matter, I will have to unbolt the front camshaft to remove the buckets entirely. Besides, I don't even have the special valve tool anyways & this might save me some grief anyways.

Any recommendations on a torque wrench when I bolt it back on? what is the range (lbs/ft) we need to get for the GS500?

edit: Which one would you prefer/recommend & why? --> $10 Clicker torque wrench (10-150 ft. lbs.) or $30 Beam torque wrench (0-150 ft. lbs.)
both are accurate within +/- 4%

[Kerry]

Kerry, you said that you didnt get your valves adjusted for the first time untill around 17,000 miles right?

I just checked my records, and my first valve check was at 16,586 miles.  Only the left intake valve was tight, but not by much.  I took the shim out and tried to sand it thinner.  (Ha!)  In the end I just put the shim back in and rode on....

Why did I wait so long to check my valves?  Mostly because I was scared to fool around with any part of the engine.  But once I had done it I realized that it is a fairly straightforward procedure, with very little chance of breaking anything.

I checked the clearances again at mile 23726 and they were ... close enough.

When I checked them again at mile 30249 both the right intake and right exhaust valves were loose.  I went up one shim size on both.

But when I checked the valves today at mile 32965 (while video-ing the whole procedure   ) I found that both of the valves on the right were tight again.   I went back to the original shim thickness on the intake valve, but the exhaust valve needed to drop by 3 sizes.  I put the original size back in for that valve too, because that was the thinnest shim I had.  So what do you know - at the moment I'm back to the original shim sizes on all 4 valves!  (Although I still need to drop 2 sizes on one of them.)

Having said all of that, would I recommend skipping your valve checks, or doubling/tripling  the service interval?  NO.  For whatever reason, I think I just got lucky.  When richard and I checked the clearances on his bike for the first time at around 12,000 miles (my fault   ) his exhaust valves were WAY out of whack.  After we adjusted them his mileage and power took a very noticeable leap upwards.  I'm not sure how many miles he has on the bike now (several thousand more) but he recent;y said that his bike seems to be having similar symptoms again.  :x

One more thing.  It's easy for me to say that you should check your valves every 4,000 now that I'm comfortable with doing it myself.  But if I was looking at a $100 or $200 shop bill every 4,000 miles you can BET I would put it off!