How does one find out the invoice price?

[Laura]

When buying a new car, it is pretty simple to find out what the invoice prices is. Motorcycle dealers seem to be cagier about that information than car dealers are. Does anybody know how to find what the invoice price is on a motorcycle? Or is there a certain percentage that is added to invoice to get the MSRP? And I know with many car manufacturers, even if you pay invoice the dealer is still making around 3%. Is that true with bikes as well?

Laura

[John Bates]

Try here

[Cire]

Well I would think it owuld be very similar to a car dealership...I talked with a friendwho worked at University Honda in Seattle and she said bike mark up was like 10% on new...which really sounded low to me...then again the dealer gets you on shipping and set up fees, so they are still making some money

[gryhound89]

I think the best thing to do would be to check as many dealers as possible to get an idea of the average price, that way you can find the sweet deals as well...there's a dealer in the pittsburgh area selling brand new ZX-6RRs for $6500  

[tkm433]

When buying a new car, it is pretty simple to find out what the invoice prices is

That is what the car industry makes you think is invoice just to make you think you are beating them at what they do best

Motorcycle dealers seem to be cagier about that information than car dealers are. Does anybody know how to find what the invoice price is on a motorcycle? Or is there a certain percentage that is added to invoice to get the MSRP?

First off MSRP is not some law that the dealer must go by or some magic price that they must sell it to you for it is just a price that they consider to be fair for all involved where by you the consumer and the dealer are not going to get screwed.  If the dealer goes out of business where are you going to buy your next bike? Where are you going to get it serviced?  You can not get your oil changed or your valves adjusted on ebay can you?

And I know with many car manufacturers, even if you pay invoice the dealer is still making around 3%. Is that true with bikes as well?Laura

So, I do not know if you think 3% is good or bad but do you really think that 3% is enough to keep the doors open to any business even if it is 3% over all cost?  

Everyone thinks that dealers are out to rip you off and maybe some make you feel that way but if you really look at the real picture you might think otherwise.  

So here are some question to think about:

When was the last time you went to the gas station and asked them how much profit they were making off of the tank full of gas that you just pumped? Did you try and offer them less because you felt like they were screwing you?  I did not think so!  Maybe you drove down the block to save a few cents a gallon to show them but how much did you send to drive down the block???

If you own a house I would guess you are paying at least 5% to 6% on the loan or maybe more but you seem to think 3% is enough to keep a dealer open?

When is the last time you talked them down at WalMartf or anything that you bought? I did not think so!

When you go to a bar or restraunt do you try and talk them down on the price or ask them their MSRP or profit margin?  I would guess no and then you most likey tip them 10% to 20% or maybe more on top of their asking price?  Hey the dealer migh be able to live on 3% but your waiter/bar tender needs 10% to 20%?

How about at the moives when they charge you $3 for pop corn and another $3 for a drink do you try and talk them down on price?  What percentage profit is made on a $3 bag of popcorn?  10%, 20%, 300% or maybe just a little bit more?

If you find a good dealer they are not out to screw you they are most likely in the business because at one point they had a love for motorcycles and somehow happened to make it their job/living.  As you make money doing what ever you do in life so does the dealer.

As for the car bussiness and I would guess the motorcyle business as far as new cars and bikes the money is not made in the front of the house( sales floor) it is made by the service department.  If a dealer is run correctly the service department will pay all of the bills and the profit comes from the sales of new cars or bikes.  When is the last time you were at a major dealer that did not have a busy service department?

[JetSwing]

tkm433, i see your point...but how do you even go about comparing car shopping with grocery shopping?  :dunno:

[Kerry]

If the dealer goes out of business where are you going to buy your next bike?

From a previous owner, perhaps?  :mrgreen:

Where are you going to get it serviced?  You can not get your oil changed or your valves adjusted on ebay can you?

It IS much harder to find independent motorcycle mechanics than car mechanics - but not necessarily impossible.

Everyone thinks that dealers are out to rip you off and maybe some make you feel that way but if you really look at the real picture you might think otherwise.

I wouldn't dare say that dealers as a rule are out to rip you off.  They're out to make a decent living like everyone else.  I might say that far too many folks feel obliged to buy new when they KNOW the value of the vehicle will drop like a rock as it leaves the lot.  Or even if new is the more attractive option because of the warranty or whatever, too many buy over their heads and often bigger than they need.

When was the last time you went to the ________ and asked them how much profit they were making off of the ________ that you just [bought]? Did you try and offer them less because you felt like they were screwing you?  I did not think so!

On one hand I agree with your direction here; if a vehicle that you want seems to be worth what the dealer is asking - what's the problem?  Pay it!  (In cash, hopefully.)

On the other hand, most retail establishments got out of the bargaining game a long time ago, whereas it seems that the vehicle and real estate markets have a long way to go in that regard.  But with such "big ticket" items that kinda makes sense.  Anyway, if you're the non-bargaining type (like me) looking to buy a big-ticket item in a bargaining-oriented market, you just about have to assume that the original asking price can come down somewhat and still be "fair".

If you own a house I would guess you are paying at least 5% to 6% on the loan or maybe more but you seem to think 3% is enough to keep a dealer open?

You lost me here.  That 5 to 6% loan is compounded monthly for 30 years and usually ends up costing you more than the purchase price of the home.  But since there's usually no other way to get into a home (no way to save up and pay with cash) that's what you get.

I agree that 3% is nowhere near enough markup on the purchase price of a vehicle for a dealer to stay in business.  But if you're talking about a 3% loan, I'd say (in general) that if you're taking out a loan for a car you're spending too much.

When is the last time you talked them down at WalMartf or anything that you bought? I did not think so!

When is the last time you met a WalMart teller that was paid on commission?  (If they are then I'll retract the question and plead ignorance.)

When you go to a bar or restraunt do you try and talk them down on the price or ask them their MSRP or profit margin?  I would guess no and then you most likey tip them 10% to 20% or maybe more on top of their asking price?

Yep, but I know all of the facts when I walk in the door and see the menu.  If it's too pricey, out I go again.

How about at the moives when they charge you $3 for pop corn and another $3 for a drink do you try and talk them down on price?

Nope, I eat before I go and take a drink at the water fountain on the way into the theater.  

What percentage profit is made on a $3 bag of popcorn?  10%, 20%, 300% or maybe just a little bit more?

That's my point.  I'm not paying for that!  (Unless my wife insists.   )

If you find a good dealer they are not out to screw you they are most likely in the business because at one point they had a love for motorcycles and somehow happened to make it their job/living.  As you make money doing what ever you do in life so does the dealer.

Absolutely right.

As for the car bussiness and I would guess the motorcyle business as far as new cars and bikes the money is not made in the front of the house( sales floor) it is made by the service department.  If a dealer is run correctly the service department will pay all of the bills and the profit comes from the sales of new cars or bikes.  When is the last time you were at a major dealer that did not have a busy service department?

This makes me wonder: How DO the independent service places stay in business?    I guess a tire place could make its profits on the tires (and wheels   ) it sells.  Same for a muffler place, I suppose?  But what about the ones who only WORK ON cars?  Do they charge more per hour than the service department at the dealership?  Uh, no -- certainly not enough to even things out.  They must get by with lower overhead costs, pay their mechanics less, and so on....  :dunno:

[danci1973]

I think 3% of a lot of money is still a respectable amount and yes, a car/bike dealers should be able to live on that.

D.

[Laura]

tkm433, first of all, I didn't say a single derogatory thing about dealers. All I said was that they are cagey about saying what the invoice price is. I don't see how that is an offensive statement- it was an honest observation. Maybe "wary" would have been a better word choice.

Secondly, do YOU actually pay MSRP on a vehicle? That's surprising, because I don't know ANYBODY (in real life and not on the internet anyway) that pays MSRP. (Unless it's a Harley-Davidson, and then they'll actually pay more than MSRP). And nobody can force a dealer to sell a bike below MSRP. The dealer knows what kind of profit they need and they know how much they paid for the bike. How can they get screwed? They can just say no.

Thirdly, if there are two gas stations a block away from each other, and one of them is selling gas for a few cents less per gallon than the other. And neither one is filthy, or has crack heads and drunks hanging around outside, OF COURSE I'm going to go to the one with cheaper gas. And it's not because I want to "show" the more expensive seller, it's because I want to get the most for my money. You make that sound like that's a crazy thing to do. I would think any rational person would do the same. Now if there is a small gas station that is run by the people who actually own it, and they are nice and it is clean and they are actually pleasant to do business with, and might actually go out of their way to be helpful, then I'd gladly pay a few extra cents per gallon, or even drive out of my way to fill up my car there. Unfortunately, I don't know of any place like that in my town.

Fourth, how can you compare buying a vehicle to buying popcorn or shopping at Walmart? For one thing, I haven't even set foot in Walmart in over 5 years. I actually prefer to shop at local, independently run businesses, even though their prices may be a little higher. And so what if I'm willing to pay 300% or more above cost on a serving of popcorn at the movies once in awhile. Do you really think that means I should be willing to pay 300% or more above dealer cost on a $8000 bike, or a $25,000 car? That's crazy. And do you really think the grocery store industry is exactly the same as the automobile or motorcycle industry? There are grocery stores all over the place. It is simple to compare prices on laundry detergent. There are probably hundreds of places in town where I can buy laundry detergent. If there is only one motorcycle dealer in town, it's difficult to compare prices. You really think I should just trust that the price the dealer quotes me, on a product that costs THOUSANDS of dollars, is a "fair" price?

Fifth, "you seem to think 3% is enough to keep a dealer open?" Huh? I NEVER said that, and I don't even see how you could infer that from what I wrote. It seems that most dealers are perfectly willing to bargain, or charge less than MSRP. That they expect to get less than MSRP for a vehicle. I just like to have a good idea of the range between the cost of the bike and the price of the bike, so we can come to a middle ground that we are both happy with. I will NOT be happy with MSRP. If a dealer expects me to pay MSRP, I won't buy the bike at all. They can keep the bike and sell it at MSRP to somebody else. Obviously I can't force the dealer to sell me a bike at a price that isn't profitable for them. It isn't possible for me to take advantage of the dealer.

Lastly, if it's the service department that keeps the dealer in business, as you yourself say, and not sales, how am I going to put a dealer out of business by not paying MSRP? Why did you even bring up the whole example of where am I going to buy a bike if the dealer goes out of business, and where am I going to get my bike serviced?

Cyclebuy is a nice site but I'm interested in brand that they don't have info for. 10% seems low. Maybe I'll use cyclebuy for a few bikes, and see what the difference is between the invoice prices and MSRPs. I wonder if less expensive bikes have a higher percentage markup than more expensive bikes.

Laura

[callmelenny]

scooped by Laura while typing, sorry for overlap


Angry car salesman or dealership owner above makes a very tortured and illogical arguement.

People dicker on car prices because the DEALERS will dicker, the consumer can't dictate this process. Comparing car dealers to retail merchants is ridiculous from an economic standpoint.

Buying a car for most people is like buying a house (loan, multiyear committment). Guess what, people dicker on houses too!

The profit margin on toilet paper is simple. Wal-Mart buys it from a supplier at a set price and marks it up as they see fit. The consumer can buy it or go somewhere else.

The price that a dealer pays for a car is only one factor in the ultimate profit on the transaction. Will the buyer pay for expensive after-market items (undercoating, floor mats)? What are the manufacturer incentives that the consumer doesn't know about? Will they come back to the dealer for VERY profitable scheduled service? Will they lease a car ($$$$$$)? Will they take that 6-year loan? Will they trade the car back in  a few years?

My final comment:
Everybody I know that buys new cars goes on and on about what a great deal they got. Everybody thinks they are the one that "stole" the car from the dealer. Yet, in my life I have never seen a car dealer go out of business unless there was criminal activity involved. How do they make all their money by giving away cars for nothing? :dunno:

[John Bates]

Don't forget the "holdback" the dealer gets at the end of the sales period.
On my 03 Honda that I purchased he got a kickback from the manufacturer of 3% of MSRP.  That amounted to $807. :x

You're down right he can make a good profit selling at invoice, and they do it all the time.

[Anonymous]

#1 lesson in life:

Everyone wants your money.

That's it.

Any business that works on commission is out to stick it to you.

All "big" purchases ARE haggleable, you can get something extra if you ask.  Reduced price, free delivery, something....

Personally, I despise salesmen.  They're out to make a buck and they'll take as many of them as they can get from you.  Have you EVER seen a poor car dealer owner?

[Laura]

So, from what I can tell, on the few models I've been able to get invoice prices on, markup seems to be somewhere around 16%. Plus I know some brands have a 3-5% holdback. I don't know if all brands do.

Laura

[Cire]

this information comes from a friend whose daughter worked for a large  dealership: one thing most people don't know is that sometimes the dealer does not even "buy" the new models to put on their lot, they just pay flooring cost to the manufacture which is a percentage of the invoice price, the faster they turn/sell the car the less their flooring cost are and the lower their general operating overhead is without tying up their money/cash flow buying vehicles to fill the sales floor ... ever wonder how certain dealers are the "largest volume dealer in city XYZ" ... they are using this system to their advantage and turn the cars as fast as they can, taking a smaller profit on each individual car but selling alot fo them ... and include any additional discounts fromthe manufacture or 'hold backs' there can be a nice profit built into the car, that is negotiable ...  as my old boss said how hungry is the sales person?  if they made earlier sales that day they may not negotiate with you, but if they haven't made any sales and they have a number of units sold quota to meet or need to put food on the table, they might be more likely to negotiate ... its all a game and what you are comfortable with paying for the item you are considering purchasing

[Anonymous]

The dealers NEVER buy the vehicle.  In fact they get them "free" for 90 days.  After that time they have to begin to pay the manufacturer a small "rental" rate until it's sold.

I'll say it again...

A salesman WILL take you for everything he thinks he can get.  He'll tell you the car shits golden eggs out the tailpipe if it will help make a sale.  I NEVER buy ANYTHING without knowing about it.  And I ALWAYS test the salesman with a few questions I already know the answer to.  Just to see exactly HOW dishonest he is.  Most are just idiots who are good talkers and have no other skills.

Oh, and the free internet "invoices" through say Kelly or NADA, yea right, I believe it's only $500 under MSRP.  In your dreams!  It's a scam to keep prices high.

It kills me that a car/truck can easily cost $30,000.  WHY?  You can get TWO travel trailers with a whole lot more metal in them for that price.  In some areas you can pay off half the price of a nice HOUSE for that money.  Don't tell me it's "engineering" cost.  That's what racing is for.  That's where the innovation comes from.  Other sponsors pay for that.

There is a LOT of money to be made by manufacturing and selling vehicles.  You know why a vehicle looses thousands when you drive it off the lot?  You just paid for the PROFIT they made.  Now your vehicle is priced at the actual value.  The secondary market (the used values) is where the true value of a product is achieved.  Oh, and ONLY through private sales.  Used car salesmen are even worse than new car salesmen.  I know, the guy down the street buys wrecked piles of crap and makes then LOOK new with some body work and a cheap paint job.  He'll buy a car for a few hundred and turn it into a few thousand.  Who knows what problems are just "covered up" with a bandaid and putty.  It kills me what the authorities will let them get away with.  WHY?  Because dealers pump a LOT of money into THEIR system.  Political contributions, advertizing, sales tax, utilities, etc.  And whose money is it?  The suckers, oops, I mean the buyers.  That's right, you pay it.

Yes, you've probably guessed that I've had "less than fulfilling" dealings with dealers.  Let's just say even if it's in writing they'll stick it to you because NOBODY will help you out.  The dealers are just too connected.  The newspaper won't publish a "disparaging" letter about them, look at the advertising dollars they spend.  The town won't do anything because they are a BIG contributer to income (yea, yours and my money).  Many states have "mandatory" arbitration.  That means you have no rights.  An "arbitor" (really a retired car man) makes the final decision whether you've been cheated.  Talk about the fox guarding the chicken coop!

What is the most complained about group?  Automobiles, sales and repair.  But, nobody will do anything about it.  Why?  It brings in too much money.  As long as the money keeps rolling in it will never change.  Besides the lawmakers don't care about a few hundred here and there.  Only us working guys care about getting ripped off.  Oh, and politicians are mostly LAWYERS, another group of "real winners" in my book.  Even better thieves than car people.

It's like the illegal immigrants, the whole population doesn't like it but the government won't do anything to stop it.  WHY?  Because it's GOOD for the government.  They WANT the immigrants here to have children so there are more taxpayers to pay for their projects.  Face it, white people are not even replacing their own numbers.  Someone needs to have children to pay our social security when we get older.  We keep spending and spending, passing the final pay day on to the next generation.  Did you know that EVERY person in the U.S. owes over $25,000 toward the federal debt?  That means if you're the sole breadwinner in a family of four you're into it for over $100,000.  This debt is just passed along from year to year, getting bigger and bigger.  Oh, and social security, that's a "passthrough" tax, it means that the current workers need to supply ALL of the money.  Right now there is an excess because the workers are like 10:1 in relation to the retirees.  In 20 years or so it's projected to be like 5:1, not enough to sustain it.  So, the government needs workers, where do you get them if the "natives" aren't having kids?  Immigrants.  It's well know that new arrivals have MUCH bigger families than natives.  So, the government will continue to "look away" so they can get the people to work the jobs to keep the taxes flowing.  You see, the government would rather have 10 people making $20,000 than one making $200,000.  Why?  10 people need 10 houses, 10 sets of dishes, 10 cars, 10 phones, 10 TVs, 10 sets of clothes, 10 vacations, etc.  All of that is taxed.  MUCH more than that one guy making more money.

You see, there is a REASON why things are the way they are.  Too bad nobody will tell you.

Want my theory on Iraq?  We're there to protect the oil.  Period.  The world NEEDS that oil supply to be safe.  The U.S. needs that oil to be secure.  Not only did we protect it from Saddam we're protecting it from Iran, an even bigger threat.  You see, Saudi Arabia was having a REAL problem with our troops in their country.  Muslims consider us the lowest of low.  Saudi's people wanted us out.  So, we needed a place to keep an army to protect the oil.  Hmmm, lets move everything into Iraq.  Say Saddam HAS weapons and move in.  Of course he needed to go anyway, he would have been trouble forever.  He DID say "screw you" to the world for 10+ years.  

Make no mistake, the war on terrorism is a war of religion, a good Muslim want's you converted or dead.  It would have been nice if they just kept everything over there in the middle east.  But no, they had to come over here too.  Since we cannot give up the oil to "radical" (true believers) Muslims, then we MUST be involved.  Since we're "involved" in the middle east, we're now a target.  You need to read some of the Quran, there is some scary stuff in there.  VERY scary if you're a Christian or a Jew.  As I said before, you're almost sub-human in their eyes.  You DON'T want the world to become "more Muslim".  I've been to Saudi Arabia, it's NOT a pretty sight.  And if you're a woman...  Let's just say my dog has more rights.  At least he gets to go out alone.  Muslims are out to "take it back" they want to dominate the world because they believe that ONLY their way is the right way for EVERYONE.



Enough ranting...   I'm in a pissy mood this morning...