Got the valve kit having problems...

[Anonymous]

OK, got one of the valve kits and checked my valves.  Three were tight.

Started to use the "tool" to get the shim out and it seems to be the wrong size for my cam shaft.  The ONLY way I can get it to catch at all is to put it in at an angle and then the handle is in my way to try to get the shim out.  Also, there is NO WAY it will stay locked down by itself like Kerry was doing in the video.  There is a gap of 1/4-1/3 inch between the cam shaft and the handle part of the tool when holding down the shim.  It's like the cam shaft is 3/4" diameter and the tool is 1".  When I try starting out with the tool all the way in, up against the cam shaft, it doesn't want to grab the shim holder at all.

Also, my two exhaust valves, I can't seem to get those rings to turn so I can line up the little groove to get a screwdriver in.  My intake is so loose that it wants to turn while I try to push it down.

So, if the tool is the same for all bikes (mine is an '02), than WHAT is the secret?

Thanks!

[TheGoodGuy]

humm if its that tight, you may not be able to turn it.

We had that problem when kerry and I tried it.

Loosen the cam covers (the 2 bolts on the side of the cam rods) and try probing a longer screw driver on the side to lift up teh cam shaft..

you have to loosen both sides of the cam to be able to do that.

I dont know what anyone else will reccomend.

it helps to have 2 people on this job.

[The Buddha]

There is a specific way that tool needs to be used ... look in the manual ...
The hook part goes under the cam shaft and the raised ridge on it presses down on the edge of the bucket ... also the bucket will turn as you are pressing it down ... you account for that when you position that notch in the bucket ... No idea about the video ... not seen it ...
Cool.
Srinath.

[Blueknyt]

thats funny, i let the cam lobe do the work for me:

Rotate crank/cam till the lobe is pushing the valve open, put the tool in, rotate cam in reverse only enough to free the lobe from the shim, pull the shim, messure/read numbers, do math, pick and place correct shim onto bucket making sure its seated,  (I add alittle clean motoroil onto the shim so it doesnt startout dry) crank lobe around the first direction to release the tool, go on to next valve.


WARNING:

The above was a rough draft on how i do it, dont confuse this with what the book says, you can damage your valves if you dont pay attention to how far, or what direction you turn the crank while doing this. i do this with sparkplugs out and watching the piston travel with flashlight aswell as watching what the corisponding valve is doing.

[Kerry]

What's the latest, Joe?

When you insert the tool, do you have it so the handle is in between the two cylinders?  It can be really frustrating to try it any other way.

It's entirely possible for your valves to be so tight that the tool is almost worthless.  If that seems to be the case, then your only choice is to loosen (or remove ... if absolutely necessary) the camshaft mounting bolts to get the slack you need.  As mentioned in the video, Manjul used "Indian engineering" at that point, by inserting a stout screwdriver in strategic places and prying the camshaft up and away from the shim.  It made me pretty nervous, but it worked.

Let us know how it's going.

[Anonymous]

I gave up and I'm going to take it to the shop.  I had three that were tight and the two exhaust are so tight that I can't turn the bucket to get the groove facing me to pry out the shim if I could EVER get the tool to work to try to take them out.

I re-watched your video, very helpful I have to say.  Anyway, I saw that you had the tool all the way against the cam shaft while turning it.  If I do that it will just turn without catching anything.  The only way I could get it to catch at all was to have just the tip of the tool under the cam shaft and then push down.  This left me with at least a 1/4" gap between the rear of the tool and the cam shaft.  It wouldn't even THINK about staying in that position.  Maybe I was doing it all wrong.  Point is, without being able to turn the buckets to line up the notch I'm not going to be able to take out the shims without loosening the whole cam shaft.  Since I don't want to screw anything up by loosening the cam shaft, I'll just take it to the shop and let THEM deal with getting the shims out.  I figure $100 plus parts I can handle to avoid my screwing up the cam timing.

I guess this is the price you pay for putting on 15,000 miles without checking the valves.  Note to self...  Check the valves every 7,500 miles to avoid having them too tight to work on.

Am I right to assume that when the exhaust valves are too tight they're never fully closed?  And that leads to poor idling?  And poor gas mileage?  And not as much power as I remember having?  I hope that they're OK and not ruined.  Could they be?  

BTW, went riding today and it was marvelous!  Supposed to be in the mid 70s the next few days, I just CAN'T take it to the shop now!  Maybe next week...

Thanks for your concern.  AND supplying one of the kits!

[The Buddha]

I gave up and I'm going to take it to the shop.  I had three that were tight and the two exhaust are so tight that I can't turn the bucket to get the groove facing me to pry out the shim if I could EVER get the tool to work to try to take them out.

I re-watched your video, very helpful I have to say.  Anyway, I saw that you had the tool all the way against the cam shaft while turning it.  If I do that it will just turn without catching anything.  The only way I could get it to catch at all was to have just the tip of the tool under the cam shaft and then push down.  This left me with at least a 1/4" gap between the rear of the tool and the cam shaft.  It wouldn't even THINK about staying in that position.  Maybe I was doing it all wrong.  Point is, without being able to turn the buckets to line up the notch I'm not going to be able to take out the shims without loosening the whole cam shaft.  Since I don't want to screw anything up by loosening the cam shaft, I'll just take it to the shop and let THEM deal with getting the shims out.  I figure $100 plus parts I can handle to avoid my screwing up the cam timing.

I guess this is the price you pay for putting on 15,000 miles without checking the valves.  Note to self...  Check the valves every 7,500 miles to avoid having them too tight to work on.

Am I right to assume that when the exhaust valves are too tight they're never fully closed?  And that leads to poor idling?  And poor gas mileage?  And not as much power as I remember having?  I hope that they're OK and not ruined.  Could they be?  

BTW, went riding today and it was marvelous!  Supposed to be in the mid 70s the next few days, I just CAN'T take it to the shop now!  Maybe next week...

Thanks for your concern.  AND supplying one of the kits!

Well if its so far open that you cannot get the tool in ... I almost think its very very bad ... and yes low gas mileage, lousy starting and lousier running usually when cold but could be when hot too and and loss of power are all typical issues in that situation ... Now is it possible that its too far to be saved ... hard question to answer ... but suzuki made the valves with some hard material ... not like kawi that made exhausts with good and intakes with shitty material .... making intakes wear out very very quickly ... anyway ... your best bet is that you had even wear all around the valve ... if you had super hot spots or a place where wear was concentrated ... it will leak like a sieve ... and never run right ... so I guess you set the valves right and see how it is ... if its OK ... you likely saved the thing ...
You cannot actually screw up the timing ... I'll wire tie or zip tie the cam sproket to the cam chain ... then undo the cam chain tensioner, and pop off the camshafts and maybe attempt a manjul or atleast lift it off ... easy ... the hard part is ... how many shim sizes do you go down cos you got no reading ... anyway after you get a thin set of shims in and get a reading that is too much ... after a few mins of running ... then swap in the right sized one ... so 2 valve adjustments ... anyway I am betting the shop fooks it up ... yes that's their job, that's what they do and do well ... I recently saw a horro show beyond belief at my friends place and he said he took it to these 2 shops in town ... and every time he went there after they were like all condescending ... and going like that POS is still running ... Of course its not right now ... and its a spring chicken compared to the 89 I am flogging through its 47 th thousand mile ... So my money is on the fact ... you bike is prolly OK ... but the mecahnics will do their best to kill it ... My advise Find a local Gs twinner and buy him a few cases of his fave brew ... and hold on to my kit ... and you'll be better off ... If the kits already sent off to me ... I'll do the 89 and send it back once you enlist the help ... and yea you can call me if needed if you are worried you'd get stuck ...
Cool.
Srinath.

[Kerry]

I gave up and I'm going to take it to the shop.

Hey ... at least you tried!  

The only way I could get it to catch at all was to have just the tip of the tool under the cam shaft and then push down.  This left me with at least a 1/4" gap between the rear of the tool and the cam shaft.  It wouldn't even THINK about staying in that position.

Hmmm.  When a valve is too tight the cam lobe contacts the shim too early and pulls away from it too late.  What you're describing sounds like the whole setup is too loose.  Either that, or the shim is so overly thick that the bucket is held too far away from the cam shaft to allow for contact by the tool.   :dunno:  I'd be interested to know the thickness of your current shims.  Do you think you can get the shop to record them for you (as well as the thickness of the replacement shims)?

Am I right to assume that when the exhaust valves are too tight they're never fully closed?

Not necessarily.  If the cam lobe ever stops contacting the shim then the valve is as closed as it's going to get.  A tight valve will open too soon and close too late, but it will usually close at some point. If it didn't it would "leak" during both the compression and the combustion strokes.  With an exhaust valve that would mean sending some fuel out the pipe on the compression stroke, and then a possible backfire on the combustion stroke.  With an intake valve that would mean some weirdness on the compression stroke and then a possible backfire through the carbs on the combustion stroke.  I'd be very surprised if any of your valves are not closing at all.

I just remembered another possibility.  A layer of "gunk" could have built up between the actual valve and its seat.  That would prevent the entire assembly (valve, bucket, and shim) from rising high enough to contact the cam lobe as long as it should.  But that would make for a too LOOSE valve, not a too TIGHT one.  I can't figure out how you can have a clearance that's too tight AND a valve tool that's too thin to contact both the camshaft and the bucket rim....  

And that leads to poor idling?  And poor gas mileage?  And not as much power as I remember having?

Yep, out-of-spec valves can lead to all of the above.

Best of luck to ya.  And think twice before you ignore Srinath's warning about the shop.  

[Anonymous]

OK, ya'll talked me into it.  I still have the kit (the P.O. had closed at noon) and I was going to mail it out today.  I'll give it ONE more shot.  I'll watch the video again, if necessary, loosen the cam shaft.  I guess worst case I could trailer it to the shop.

SS:  As far as I know, I'm the only GS'r in a hundred miles.

Thanks for all the help and encouragement.

Oh, SS: Hope all your friends and relatives escaped unscathed!

[The Buddha]

Watch you PM's ... my phone number is comming ... call if you get stuck ...
But open the valve cover like you did before and now you have to take carbs and air box off ... then zip tie cam sprokets to the cam chain and undo the CCT ... then take off the intakes and then exhaust ... and swap those shims ... maybe drop 3-4 sizes ... or whtever you think ... then measure it after re assembly ... Now important ... do not swap the caps ... caps are all line bored and wear with the cam shaft ... so make sure they go back in exactly where they came from and the same way they were ... Measuring the clearance right after a swap ... will read low ... but if that is too much ... as in its above the range ... then fit a thicker shim in ... You might still need a swap after a few mins of running .... shim floats on oil as you put it in the bucket ... and that makes for a inaccurate measurement ...
Cool.
Srinath.

[davipu]

Alabama ehh?  send gas money and I'll be there in 3 days to fix it.

[Anonymous]

I got them changed!

I'm making a new post with the details and to tell others how important these valve shims are!

Thanks again to all of you who supplied the kits, gave suggestions, convinced me to try again...

[Kerry]

I got them changed!

Yahoo!  Pat yourself on the back, bud!  

[The Buddha]

What d'ya know ... nagging and yelling works ... Better not let the wife know ... Might be big trouble ...
Cool.
Srinath.

[Flash]

I gave up and I'm going to take it to the shop.  I had three that were tight and the two exhaust are so tight that I can't turn the bucket to get the groove facing me to pry out the shim if I could EVER get the tool to work to try to take them out.

I too had a similar experience. I used Kerry's kit and had a difficult time using the valve adjust tool as well  :dunno:  Both of my exhaust valves were soooo tight the "buckets" would not rotate at all. I went as far as removing the camshafts, but no luck. The shims currently in place are the thinnest Suzuki makes (according to Kerry). So, I am in the process of removing the cylinder head to see if I inspect the valves themselves and possibly replace them and anything in between. Besides, I stripped one of the bolts leading into the cylinder head and I need to remove it anyways to have clearance to drill and put in a helicoil. The problem is the cylinder head does not want to budge. Anyone have any suggestions or tips on how to successfully remove it. I've tried everything I can think of (which isn't saying much). Help, please!!! I would rather try to fix it myself than have to tow it to the Suzuki shop and get screwed.

Thanks in advance.

[Kerry]

The shims currently in place are the thinnest Suzuki makes (according to Kerry).

For future reference, here are the Suzuki part numbers (from Ron Ayers):

Code Select Expand

12892-45000-215     SHIM,TAPPET 2.15
12892-45000-220     SHIM,TAPPET 2.20
12892-45000-225     SHIM,TAPPET 2.25
12892-45000-230     SHIM,TAPPET 2.30
12892-45000-235     SHIM,TAPPET 2.35
12892-45000-240     SHIM,TAPPET 2.40
12892-45000-245     SHIM,TAPPET 2.45
12892-45000-250     SHIM,TAPPET 2.50
12892-45000-255     SHIM,TAPPET 2.55
12892-45000-260     SHIM,TAPPET 2.60
12892-45000-265     SHIM,TAPPET 2.65
12892-45000-270     SHIM,TAPPET 2.70
12892-45000-275     SHIM,TAPPET 2.75
12892-45000-280     SHIM,TAPPET 2.80
12892-45000-285     SHIM,TAPPET 2.85
12892-45000-290     SHIM,TAPPET 2.90
12892-45000-295     SHIM,TAPPET 2.95
12892-45000-300     SHIM,TAPPET 3.00
12892-45000-305     SHIM,TAPPET 3.05
12892-45000-310     SHIM,TAPPET 3.10

For (out-of-order) BikeBandit part numbers, see this page.

At $7.86 per shim, Mr Cycles has the best online prices I'm aware of.

To compare prices, see my GS5000 Parts Fiche Catalogs page.

[Flash]

Good news:
I finally removed my cylinder head today. A friend of a friend who used to work/race on motorcycles came to my house to help me out. Apparently, the copper washers that I couldn't remove were impeading our progress  In hindsight, I should have known better, but I couldn't get the washers off and I was frustrated. As soon as he unscrewed them from the bolts (yeah, they were that tight) the head came right off.
Bad news:
One of the valves had a piece missing on the head. Running the bike lean must have caused a lot of heat build up and deteriorated the valves. They said I'm lucky the engine did not seize up. There was alot of incomplete combustion, so they said one of the valves was not closing completely either (very bad). To be on the safe side, they recommended I replace all the gaskets and o-rings (I already have the $100 engine gasket kit), replace the 4 valves/springs/seats, and bead blast the cylinder head and piston crowns, and replace the piston rings. Afterwards, I need to inspect the piston head to see if it is damaged. If so, then I need to replace them as well. Other than that, they said the interior walls and engine housing looked structurally in good shape. I guess it could be worse, eh?

I can't wait to get this thing fixed, get a trackday in, and sell it (or keep it for trackdays or amateur racing)

[The Buddha]

There was a piece missing out of the valve ... being lean causes the valve edges to wear razor sharp ... they are sorta supposed to sit up off their seats a bit even when fully closed ... AKA they close but that contact patch is on the back side mainly on the middle angle and the valve has 3 angles ... and then a roundish edge and then the face whihc is in the combustion ... the middle angle spreads and takes the other 2 angles and eventually the edge as well ... a chunk missing might be something else ... or maybe the valve wasn't rotating in the guide and that made it get hot in 1 spot and made it break off ...
Cool.
Srinath.

[The Buddha]

I also looked at the valve adjusting kit I just got back ... Y'all are a bunch of weird people ... No one thought twice about what those allen head bolts are for ...
BTW they were for the float bowl and they were meant for se7enty7 who was the first one to get that kit. And I got a 272 shim ... whoo hoo ... in general I have thicker shims now ... whihc really work for me... cos I am having them go loose.
Cool.
Srinath.

[Anonymous]

SS:
That "big" shim came from me.  Mine were all tight and big.  They're STILL a little tight.  Hope mine loosen up some.