Why exactly do you believe in God?

[chinox22x]

Ed,

A test?  Now THAT is a leap of faith.  Give up your own free will here in the only world you know for something you BELIEVE will happen when you die.  Man!  I could NEVER go that route.  It's EXACTLY what the Muslim suicide bombers think except thet get a better deal, a guaranteed 47 virgins!

The Devil, you bring up another of my points...  If God is perfect, where did the Devil come from, it was his "right-hand-man" back in the day right?  Hmmm, didn't see that coming?  Not so perfect eh?

God doesn't have to function on my terms, he just has to follow logic.  If a universe it too amazing to "just be" then a creator of a universe can't "just be".  How can anyone/anything deny that?

There are just too many flaws in ALL the religous stories of god/creation for me to believe ANY of them.  It's funny, seems to be ALL Christian reasoning here, where are the others?  No Wiccans?  Muslims?  Hindi? Buddist?  Their version of what we've been talikng about are far different that what has been said here...

much like the rest of society...you still see god as an entity.  to me that's the main problem.  remember that the word "god" is just a label.  it gives somewhat meaning to the word.  but what does that word truly mean is unknown.

[Ed_in_Az]

[Kerry]

It's much easier NOT to believe something than to believe.

This would not be said by someone who thinks of religion as a "crutch".  I'm not saying that you DO think that.  In fact, the statement makes religion sound almost noble in a way.  

God doesn't have to function on my terms, he just has to follow logic.

I'm trying to figure out what it is that you do believe.  You must have some opinion about whether/where/when/how things began?  Is time and/or space infinite?  Can anything infinite be real?  Is it logical?

I'm not playing the religion card.  Not yet anyway.  But rather than knowing what you don't believe, I'm interested in what you do believe.

PS - Logic can be a slippery slope to build on.

[Cal Price]

Obviously I am not the spokesman for all "non believers" but I don't agree that it is easier not to believe. If you accept the premise that most people follow a religion out of enlightened self interest, ie they want or expect to be "saved" / see heaven / reach a higher plain / find enlightenment or simply not burn in hell it is relatively easy to understand why believers believe. I am sure not all believers think like that but it is an underlying theme to a lot of religions. I am sure some believe just for the sake and joy of it, but not too many.

I have said before, belief must bring great comfort and fortitude in times of need, even, dare Ia say a misplaced belief. I often admire and envy people with that belief but just can't do it. That ain't easy.

How this philosophical / religious discourse related to WHY do you believe in God, I am not sure but it was inevitable. Nice to see it has not turned into an attack on "ungodly ******" or some particular group.

[Kerry]

Nice to see it has not turned into an attack on "ungodly ******" or some particular group.

[Cal Price]

Thanks, my last (well maybe) last word on this one is that I'm with the poetic Abu Bin Adam on this one.

[Anonymous]

Kerry,

No, not really, the noble part.  What I was saying is that I just cannot believe in something, especially with the conviction that others here do, in something that I cannot, using all the evidence I have, believe exists.  I mean if you get down to brass tacks, each religion pretty much boils down to one book.  The Jews have their Torah, the Christians the Bible, the Muslims the Qaran.  ALL the arguments these people make are based on something in a book that is thousands of years old.  In the Bibles case, it was written over a period of a hundred or more years and has been since revised and rewritten.  There are several versions today.  I mean people who were not even born yet when Jesus died contributed to the Bible.  Changes were made 1,000 years later.  It's NOT like you're reading the true word of God.  At least with the Qaran it's supposedly God talking directly through Muhammad.

I have no REAL idea how everything started.  That is my point, neither does anyone else.  I read scientific magazines/books who's theories are constantly changing.  And each time it gets more and more complicated which leads me to continue to believe that nobody just went poof and everything was magically made.  And if they did, how did they get poofed themselves?  Religious people seem to blindly follow the herd that are weaving quite a yarn.  The story of creation is quite frankly to me a fairy tale.  Something waved it's hand and voila, there is the universe.  OK, how did this all-powerful being come to be?  It's crazy to believe that story.  And, more crazy to believe that we're being judged by this being.  We have as much in common with this being as we do with an amoeba.  Less really.  Would you judge a bacteriums actions?  Would you punish it if it didn't "turn" the right way for you?  I mean come on, anyone with that intelligence and power does NOT need to get his rocks off playing with his "earth" science/social project.  You're being led down the primrose path here people.

And before you react, the major "God" religions ALL make God out to be an "entity", remember "in his image".  So, if you're religious you believe in a "person" running things.  A person that was just "poofed" into existince and then poofed us into existince.

Now, maybe you're all right.  Maybe we are "God made" by some REALLY smart people.  Then I STILL don't believe they expect us to be praying and worshiping them.  Again, we are SO below them that they couldn't care what we're doing.  In fact they should have no way to know what we're doing.  I mean they may be able to watch us scurry about but can they read EVERYONE'S mind?  That IS some trick.

The whole thing is just absurd to me.  I'll never believe and I guess I'll never convince someone who does to REALLY question what they believe.  You see, I come from a very religious family, went to church and figured out myself that it was just a scam.  I watch TLC, Discovery, History Channel shows and read about religion too.  I want to know why 95% of the population believes.  Organized religion is about power, plain and simple.  People need religion to answer the unknown and to know that "this isn't all there is".  Remember, when these religions were formed people had a HARD life.  Working as a slave or serf, hungry, dying of diseases, nothing but work work work.  They NEEDED to know that it would be better is they were "good" little peasants.

Cal,

I have to disagree with the believe or not believe.  Do you find it easier to "trust" or "not trust"?  I guess they relate.  If someone tells you something do you automatically believe them?  Or, do you check it out?  I do the latter.  To me to have faith, believe, trust, does not come easy.  I need to be proved that I can indeed trust, believe, and have faith in whatever/whomever wants it.  That is what I meant.

I'll let someone else talk now...

[Dom]

If God created everything and is omniscient then doesn't he already know how I am going to turn out and whether I would be a "believer or not"?  Shoot, he created me, a non-believer.  Why would he create a non-believer?  Hmmmm.....

And why would God have given me a brain if he didn't expect me to question his existence?

[john]

If God created everything and is omniscient then doesn't he already know how I am going to turn out and whether I would be a "believer or not"?  Shoot, he created me, a non-believer.  Why would he create a non-believer?  Hmmmm.....

And why would God have given me a brain if he didn't expect me to question his existence?

It's called free will baby   It's a beautiful thing.

I was discussing religion with an athiest.  I worried it would become an ugly conversation, but it didn't.

She said she didn't think we had a soul, I said that we all have energy running throughout our bodies (we really run on electricity).  I said that Einstein proved energy can't be destroyed, therefore if we die, the energy dissapates into the cosmos, and becomes part of the universe.  It continues.  So we really don't die, our soul/life force/whatever continues on somehow.  Certainly she can believe that nothing comes of it, but she did agree that it was an interesting thought, and I swear she was comforted by it.

I understand not believing.  And I don't think it's an easy choice.  It's no easier and no harder.  To believe in nothing is still believing in something  :mrgreen:  If you're secure with the belief, then I'm OK with that.  I don't agree, but I'm not going to knock it.

Religion is such a sticky subject.  Consider how many ideas there are, all competing and claiming to be correct.  That's pretty wild.  I'm amazed this thread hasn't regressed into a poop fest and been banished to the tard farm.  I'm really impressed with some of the viewpoints presented here, and most are very compelling and interesting.

[acoder]

I'm amazed this thread hasn't regressed into a poop fest and been banished to the tard farm.  I'm really impressed with some of the viewpoints presented here, and most are very compelling and interesting.

Another reason why I'm so glad this community exists!!  

Not only are the members extremely helpful when it comes to motorcycle questions (not just GS500), but they are a mature enough group to discuss such a topic without turning it into a flame war.   :guns:

On many of the other forums I fequent on a daily basis, this thread would have turned ugly somewhere around the 3rd post.  
It definitely shows that we respect everyone and their opionions.

Thanks Guys!!  

[Dom]

So I guess my next question would be: Do we actually have free will?  I've heard people talk about "God's plan", but did or does he actually have one?  Are we just acting out a script that was conceived before the epoch of time?

[EDub]

Hehe, now i remember why i love this forum.  We can have an in-depth, intelligent conversation about a very touchy subject to many people.  If this thread were on ANY other forum, it would have turned into a heated bloodbath by now.  I am proud to be part of this group of intelligent and compassionate individuals

[Ed_in_Az]

 

[cernunos]

If everyone were to ride a Baby G or an HD would it be a much more co-habitable world? I love the GS500, this forum and all of you. :kiss:

C.......

[Cal Price]

JoeRocker, Interesting point about trust. I could relate exactly to your question. In just about everything in my everyday life if someone tells me something or makes a statement that seems feizable I tend to give them the benefit and believe them. I do, however, tend to check out what I can and if I find they have spoken with forked tounge I never believe a thing they say again. (Until checked)

That's fine for everyday life but for matters spiritual, how do you check?

As for John and Einstein's electricity, an afterlife is the hook if you like for most religious belief, we are all attratcted to the idea of going on eternally and cetainly the atoms that make us up will physically, the life force, spirituality, electricity is again where the faith and believe come along.

I was at a funeral yesterday of a grand old lady who I had known since 1961 when I was 15. She wrote her own funeral oration which was delivered by her son and she spoke about being re-united with her beloved husband Joe who died about four years back. "Tonight Joe and I will have dinner, two fillet steaks and a couple of bottles of decent Claret, Joe will probably have fish and a beer" Oh I hope so that's my kind of afterlife! Hope is one thing belief is another.

[yamahonkawazuki]

dom, what you said,is a valid question/point. however, according to the christian bible, god did not create a non-believer, john 3;16 is my reference to that. the bible is just that no more, and no less, no book of mormon no extra books of this or that,, i do apologise if ive offended and mormons, or jw's, sure you may find "holes in the book"or story, but  if you read it thoroughly, it all comes together, jesus christ was known as  king of the jews, (someone made reference to the torah, ill have to read that to see their point of view)you chose to not believe, that is your point, ok. satan, was known as Lucifer, when he was with god, cant remember what he did to anger him so, but ill have to read to find out. all in all this iom surprised has kept itself out of the tard farm for quite a while now, and been quite active congrats all, maybe the wave of the future? (active to-the-point discussion, congrats all

[Anonymous]

Cal,

Exactly... if it sounds feasable give it the benefit of the doubt but a "god" is not feasable to me.  Something coming out of nothing and making us doesn't sound plausable to me.  So, I take it as false unless I find evidence to the contrary.  And one book (the Bible) as the ONLY source of information (to Christians) which has been rewritten many times over thousands of years isn't good enough.  Especially since there are other thousand year old (some older) books (in different religions) with a different story.  You know there are other OLD religions with a completely different account of things.  Think about it, 5 people tell you "their" version of something that happened, they can't ALL be correct... right?

People wanting an afterlife is the REAL reason they believe.  People in general just can't handle the thought of nothing after death.  They hope for utopia, reunion with loves and friends, perfection forever.  Problem is the life you have to live to get to heaven.  Seems like sin is the most fun.  What?  No free love (sex)?  No booze?  No smoke in heaven?  Hopefully I can have a bike there...  What!?  A helmet law!!!  Please, say it isn't so...

Who says your "life energy" is a form of "real energy" that must be conserved?  To me life is a bunch of chemical reactions that all work together.  There is no "life force" found only in living things.

Why are people so arrogant and put themselves SO high above other creatures?  Why do you think only you have a "soul"?  Animals have MANY of the same characteristice we have.  The ONLY thing they can't do is write!  Chimps, our closest relative, live in organized communities, communicate, use tools, have families, play, mourn, everything but write.  I'll tell you why we say they don't have a soul...  Because we EAT them!  You'd feel real bad about that steak if you thought you'd meet the donor in heaven!

[Cal Price]

Joe, you are leaning on an open door, I think we just agreed.

[callmelenny]

Isn't it nice that we can have a religious discussion that includes a peeing monkey and dozens of flipping middle fingers and shooting guns!  :lol:  :lol:

I don't really have a lot new to add, and most of these topics have been debated for thousands of years in different cultures with no resolution.

People have faith in lots of things despite lack of evidence or evidence to the contrary. In surveys, roughly 25% of people  express belief in things like astrology, ghosts, Santa Claus, ESP. If there was strong evidence for something it would not require faith.

As a scientist I generally practice Hume's suggestion that " A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence". But I would be naive not to acknowledge that in many human affairs (of the heart and mind) we are often motivated by forces other than rationality.

[Cal Price]

Santa Clause ! hey what, are you trying to tell me something, God(s) may be debatable but I've SEEN santa!