What do you think about illegal immigrants?

[callmelenny]

I'll go out on a limb here...

I don't think cheap labor is a valuable service.

The rates paid to illegals for many dangerous and hard jobs do not attract natives, that is why the jobs are filled by illegals. This cheap labor lowers the cost of our produce, housing, etc. BUT we taxpayers subsidize these low costs through other means. Illegals don't get workers comp when they get hurt, public hospitals cover their treatment. Many are paid under the table in cash, so they don't pay as many taxes. If they have children, they stress the education system.

If we enforce immigration law, employers will have to raise wages to fill jobs. This will raise prices on goods and services but will lower the burden on other sectors of the economy.

[Anonymous]

callmelenny,

YOU have it exactly right!  Bravo!

jiggersplat,

And HOW pray tell do you count people looking for work?  Do you get a call every morning asking if you have a job or are looking?  The official unemployment rate is the people who are collecting benefits.  That is the ONLY number the government has.  They know how many ARE working (legally anyway) through payroll taxes.  Or I guess I should say how many jobs that are filled.  There is NO WAY to determine exactly how many are unemployed.  AND without an additional 10 million ILLEGAL job holders the unemployment rate COULD easily hit 0%.

And what do you think a big part of that defecit the government is running is spent on?  Give up?  Money spent on people who "refuse" to do certain jobs.  Entitlements take up a BIG part of the budget.  We have welfare mothers who WON'T work.  We have people collecting unemployment because they want another "cushy" job and WON'T (if only temporarily) take a "crap" job.  We treat people like kings and queens here.  Refuse to work no problem, there is a program or two to give you a home and money.  What you described is exactly what happens BECAUSE WE LET IT.  People get to sit at home and watch the price is right and WE pay them to do it.  Anyone can find a crooked doctor to proclaim them "disabled"  Medicare/medicaid fraud is HUGE.  Welfare fraud is HUGE.  There are people living in Chicago who collect welfare from 3 states.  IL, IN, and WI.  They just take a bus to each office.  The are ORGANIZED!  They work in groups.  One person in each state and they share addresses between them.

Eliminating fraud would cut the budget by probably a third.  Eliminating the illegals and paying a "living" wage to Americans would be better for us all.

It's sad but the only solution to all the fraud I see is a national ID card AND biometric ID linked to an address.  Because of ALL the people who game the system I think it's going to happen.  Because of thieves, big brother has to keep track of us all.  Once again, a few bad apples ruin it for everyone.  Once again the bad 5% ruin it for the other 95%.

[jason_S]

Here is a link to Barb Simson's column on WorldNetDaily.com.  About halfway through the article she lists these statistics on how "cheap" illegals are:

According to the Center for Immigration Studies, some of the largest costs to Americans are: federal school aid ($1.4 billion); food programs including food stamps, WIC, free school lunches ($1.9 billion); medical treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); emergency room health care, Medicaid ($2.5 billion); and federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion). Every year!

[Kerry]

Given a population of 300 million (it's actually about 296, but close enough) that works out to $32 per capita per year.  Remember, these were called the "largest costs" so I assume there are more.  :dunno:

Too much to accept?  Too little to complain about?  You decide.

[jiggersplat]

This is from the Bureau of Labor Statistics website.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.tn.htm

This news release presents statistics from two major surveys, the Current Population Survey (household survey) and the Current Employment Statistics survey (establishment survey).  The household survey provides the information on the labor force, employment, and unemployment that appears in the A tables, marked HOUSEHOLD DATA.  It is a sample survey of about 60,000 households conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau for the Bureau of Labor Statistics
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People are classified as employed if they did any work at all as paid employees during the reference week; worked in their own business, profession, or on their own farm; or worked without pay at least 15 hours in a family business or farm.  People are also counted as employed if they were temporarily absent from their jobs because of illness, bad weather, vacation, labor-management disputes, or personal reasons.

People are classified as unemployed if they meet all of the following criteria:  They had no employment during the  reference week; they were available for work at that time; and they made specific efforts to find employment sometime during the 4-week period ending with the reference week.  Persons laid off from  a job and expecting recall need not be looking for work to be counted as unemployed.  The unemployment data derived from the household survey in no way depend upon the eligibility for or receipt of unemployment insurance benefits.

[jiggersplat]

And what do you think a big part of that defecit the government is running is spent on?  Give up?  Money spent on people who "refuse" to do certain jobs.  Entitlements take up a BIG part of the budget.  We have welfare mothers who WON'T work.  We have people collecting unemployment because they want another "cushy" job and WON'T (if only temporarily) take a "crap" job.  We treat people like kings and queens here.  Refuse to work no problem, there is a program or two to give you a home and money.  What you described is exactly what happens BECAUSE WE LET IT.  People get to sit at home and watch the price is right and WE pay them to do it.  Anyone can find a crooked doctor to proclaim them "disabled"  Medicare/medicaid fraud is HUGE.  Welfare fraud is HUGE.  There are people living in Chicago who collect welfare from 3 states.  IL, IN, and WI.  They just take a bus to each office.  The are ORGANIZED!  They work in groups.  One person in each state and they share addresses between them.

i agree with you whole-heartedly that the welfare system is abused.  but i don't know how you can sort out the people who really need it from the people who are just lazy.  therefore, i propose we eliminate all welfare, medicare and social security.

[jiggersplat]

I don't think cheap labor is a valuable service.

spend a month only buying stuff "made in china" and a month buying stuff "made in america" and then you will appreciate cheap labor.

[jiggersplat]

here's some more fuel for the fire  

http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart

[jason_S]

Given a population of 300 million (it's actually about 296, but close enough) that works out to $32 per capita per year.  Remember, these were called the "largest costs" so I assume there are more.  :dunno:

Too much to accept?  Too little to complain about?  You decide.

But not all 300 million of those are taxpayers.  How many children and non working spouses and welfare recipients are included in that 300 mill?

[Kerry]

You're absolutely right.  Each taxpayer would need to adjust to cover his dependents.

Family of 4 w/1 taxpayer = $128 a year for that taxpayer.  Family of 6 = $192 a year, and so on.  Then add some for families who don't pay taxes at all, etc.

I just wanted to bring the billions down to the pocketbook level.

[cernunos]

According to the last statistics I had read on employment levels, there are roughly 145-150 million taxpayers in the country. So instead of 32$ per capita let's call it 64. Are people so freakin' greedy, stingy, selfish and un-compassionate to not donate 64$/worker to ensure that someone running into some bad circumstances doesn't wind up totally homeless? I would rather pay a little bit to ensure that some have a safety net even if a few jerks somehow take advantage of the system than to take that net away just make sure a few jerks don't take advantage. Oh, another thing, it's not quite as easy as one would think to receive benefits along the line of welfare. Just like unemployment too, many of the benefits are time-limited...once you have received them a period of time, that's it. Love the Baby GS and the forum.

C.......

[Anonymous]

Wait a minute kerry and cernuos...  Those numbers were the cost to Americans for just the ILLEGALS meaning that per capita the services that ILLEGALS use is $32+.  And don't forget for a family of 4 that would be about $130 a year JUST FOR ILLEGALS!  Yes, it's too much.  That $32 per capita is NOT for Americans on welfare!  BTW, you're paying a LOT more than $32 for them.  Entitlement are something like half the entire budget.  Did you know that every persons share of the national DEBT is $25,000?  For taxpayers it's closer to $50-75,000.  Amazing huh?

How do you fix the fraud?  Let people snitch.  Like the insurance companies do.  Let people videotape the "disabled" or have stores turn them in when they buy their t-bones steaks and hagan das ice cream and Coke with food stamps.  Pay $100 a pop for each one you catch.  Hell, I could make it into a business.

I stand corrected in regard to the unemployment numbers.  Thank you jiggersplat!  I have a friend who worked in the unemployment office in the 1970s who told me about how the official numbers weren't accurate and I got this off the internet:

The discrepancy originates in the methodology of calculating unemployment rates: only those signed up at the unemployment office are being officially counted as unemployed. The six million officially unemployed persons consist solely of those who are registered at state unemployment centers as actively seeking for work. Many millions more have concluded that pursuing nonexistent jobs is futile and have dropped out of statistics altogether. Millions of discouraged people aren't being counted and are simply disappearing from official U.S. unemployment statistics. This discrepancy also reflects the fact that many unemployed people are simply hard for a government bureaucracy to track. Unless a person qualifies for unemployment benefits, they are virtually impossible to identify. Even people who once qualified for unemployment fall out of the system once their benefits end.

To be honest, I think the "official" numbers lack credability because they make an estimate for 100+ million using a 60,000 sample size.  I still say that the only "official" numbers the government has on unemployment is the people signed up for benefits.  People lie in surveys.

Anyway, it's a moot point how exeactly the numbers come about.  There are 10 million illegals and about 10 million jobless.

Oh, and a rebuttal to your "add more fuel to the fire" link.  Sure, you rescue the person who fell in the well.  And then, if he was tresspassing, you arrest him.  Just like the burglar that gets caught in the chimney trying to rob the store (a much closer analogy!).  The illegals SHOULD NOT GET A JOB IN AMERICA!  They shouldn't get paid less, they shouldn't get paid the same.  They shouldn't get a job at all.  Anyone here legally can compete for jobs.  Those here illegally cannot.  How can anyone disagree?  

BTW, I knew "racism" would come up.  mexicans are WHITE.  There are 3 races, white, negroid, and asian.  Latinos, Arabs, and the rest of the caucasians are white.  You can't be racist against your own race.

[Kerry]

Wait a minute kerry and cernuos...  Those numbers were the cost to Americans for just the ILLEGALS meaning that per capita the services that ILLEGALS use is $32+.  And don't forget for a family of 4 that would be about $130 a year JUST FOR ILLEGALS!  Yes, it's too much.

That's fine.  I didn't say either way; didn't I say "you decide"?  That kind of money will affect different people in different ways.  But I still think you're neglecting to add back in ANY benefit that derives from the work the illegals do.

Anyone here legally can compete for jobs.  Those here illegally cannot.  How can anyone disagree?

I don't disagree at all.  That makes perfect sense to me.

Now ... how and why did it start happening, and why does it keep happening, and how are you realistically going to put a stop to it?  Or is this just stirring the pot for stirring-the-pot's sake?  Not only are you going to ship illegals out (HOW?  And costing how much to the same taxpayers?) but you're going to ... force native slackers to work at menial jobs?  And all with no ill effects on the economy or society?

Good luck....  :dunno:

I don't think that absolutely nothing can be done, but blanket assumptions (about how much or how little a given illegal gives or takes, and whether they're all dishonest/lazy, etc) and blanket policy statements (track 'em all down and ship 'em all out!) seem far too simplistic to me.

Maybe we could legalize the hard-working illegals and ship out the native slackers.  Yeah, that's the ticket!  

[cernunos]

Kerry, excellent idea; we can take anyone who is needing help, put 'em on a train an' let it slide off into the sea. Oh, darn it, that idea was already proposed and tried wasn't it? I think his name was Adolf something or other.  

[MstrsLilBrat]

First of all... **I am not illegal to stay here.**  

My job, working at an immigration law office, yes, I am helping many illegal aliens. I need them to make my living! hehehe

But...

Personally, I don't like a goverment give illegal aliens a driver license or any benefit. First time I came here as a student with a student visa. I must pay my school tuition triple+ more than Americans. Since I graduated, luckily, my boss hired me, but it wasn't easy to get a visa. Many foreigners try HARD to get a visa or to be a permanent residence.

So... if illegal aliens get same treatment like us, it isn't fair!



~*Brat*~

[jiggersplat]

yeah, that link i posted had a lot of crap in it.  but he did make one good point.  people are hiring them.  you can't blame immigrants for wanting a job.  you can't even really blame them for being willing to do it for less pay.  you CAN however, blame the people that are hiring them.  but in all honesty, this is a capitalist society, and if you can produce a product for less and increase your profit margins, you're going to do it.

here's what i've learned about the US government.  they like to address the symptoms rather than the cause.  take, for instance, terrorism.  we will never eliminate terrorism by invading other countries, like it or not.  we could spend billions and billions of dollars, but all it takes is one determined person to reek havoc.  you must address the cause.  why does osama hate us?  i don't know.  am i suggesting we give them what they want?  of course not.  what am i suggesting you ask?  beats the hell out of me, i'm just trying to make a point. and the point is this...

why are some immigrants willing to work for pennies on the dollar?  why will educated programmers in india work for 1/10th of my salary.  the reason is the standard of living in those countries is so low, that 1/10th of my salary in india goes a long way.  it's all about globalization.  minimum wages, import tariffs, etc., etc. are all measures to keep the standard of living artificially high in a competitive global market.

tell me what you think of minimum wage laws.

[Kerry]

Kerry, excellent idea; we can take anyone who is needing help, put 'em on a train an' let it slide off into the sea. Oh, darn it, that idea was already proposed and tried wasn't it? I think his name was Adolf something or other.  

Exactly what I was getting at.  It all sounds too cut-and-dried and indiscriminate to me....

PS - Well put, jiggersplat!

PPS - Speaking of slacking natives and inflated salaries ... I need to get some work done today.  

[Anonymous]

kerry,

It started and keeps happening because people usually only look at their own life.  Their own affairs, and the short term.  Small business owners who are the majority of the employers of illegals only see how much more they're making at the end of the month.  If I hire someone for half price I can make more profit.  More profit, that is what it's all about.  That is the ONLY benefit to having an illegal working in this country.  A business making a bigger profit for themselves.  But, the cost to society in LETTING people be lazy and in tax money paid for illegals services is much greater than the increased profit that this company makes.

I don't understand "the social impact" of MAKING people work.  It's what they should be doing anyway.  If you can, you do something.  There are deaf and blind people working.  What kind of disability prevents someone from doing ANYTHING?  As I said, half the welfare mothers should work and the other half watch all the kids.  You see the problem is we're too soft here in the U.S.  The first "slacker" that starved to death because of his/her own stupidity and refusal to be productive would cause the liberals (the ones who really want a socialist system) to cry foul and it would all end.  How do you MAKE people work?  You cut them off from the free aid trough.  BUT, you must be willing to stick to your guns.  At home they call it "tough love" where you don't enable poor habits by bailing them out every time they make a mistake.  I think the "social impact" of allowing people to live off the taxpayers and not HAVE to do a thing is far worse.  Where am I wrong?

These are all tangents of the real question.  Why are there illegals working in this country taking jobs from Americans.  Why are they here period.

And yes, the problem with enforcement is cost.  It's not worth enforcing for a $5 an hour job.  Now anyway.  Make it a BIG fine and that would change.

These illegals are affecting people who WANT to work.  High school kids can't get part time jobs in places overrun by illegals.  The unskilled who want to work can't find jobs in areas with a lot of illegals.

Again, if we the people, could get the power back that we've lost over the years and demand that illegals be sent back, the $100,000 per illegal fine to those who hire them, would pay for everything.

Why would you just give up and let people wander into you country?  It's like the "your yard" analogy I used earlier...  You wouldn't stand for squatters in your backyard but you give up on squatters in your country?!?  Is it because the numbers are so big?  Because they're not big enough?  10 million too many?  Too little?  What happens when it's 50 million?  How about other things that seem impossible to manage but should be.  Like I said before, every man woman and childs part of the federal debt is now $25,000 is that enought to worry about, to do something about?  Or is it already "too much to do anything about"?  Or not quite high enough to worry about.  What about social security?  We talked about that already, it's a crisis.  Illegals are too...

[cernunos]

As I had stated before, when you start receiving welfare, food-stamp, or whatever benefits, you can only draw for so long. If you read up on the guidelines of welfare you find that families can draw for a maximum of 5 years. Plus, they must provide proof of being turned down for work and demonstrate progress towards gaining skills for work before the 5 year term runs out. Also, there are strict guidelines for getting welfare...you can't just go into an office and say "well, I can't find a job so how 'bout some assistance?"

As far as disability; first, you cannot draw disability unless you have paid a certain amount into the system for the past ten years. No if's and's or but's...if you didn't pay into, you don't get any out of, the system. Second, if you are under the age of 50 it is quite unlikely that you will draw disability because the guidelines are very strict as to who can and who can't draw. In fact, if it is determined that you can find some suitable work earning at least 700$ a month you cannot draw disability. It is extremely difficult to become eligible for disability and generally takes around 3 years before you even get approved. I have an uncle who became blind at the age of around 55 and he is now on disability...it took him two years to get approved. And yeh, some people who are blind hold down good jobs or just make a living doing something. But what do you do with an individual who has done physical labor all their life and then goes blind, crippled, etc? I also have a good friend who developed a brain tumor which is causing partial blindness and blistering headaches, not to mention the disfigurement and partial paralysis he has developed...he has yet to get any disability. But he worked every year since he was 18 at a full-time job. He is now 46.

Any time you have a Government assistance program you are going to have some individuals who somehow beat the system. This doesn't mean you tear down the system because of it. The number who deceive the system are miniscule in comparison to those individuals who are indeed in need.

C.......

[SuZuki10]

Why haven't we heard from Ed in Az?  That's the post I've been waiting to read on this thread!