Starter motor is not weak-sauce!

Ry_Guy · April 04, 2005, 12:32:13 PM

I took starwalt's advice and jumped it without the plugs; it ran straight for a minute or 12. Phew, motor not siezed up. But then I put plugs back in and it still wouldn't fire. I listened carefully...what's that hissing noise?

Near the gas cap? So I took the key out and opened the gas cap. Left it open, put the key back in ignition, start her up and Vroooooom!
Sweet, sweet nectar!!! It's alive!

Diagnosis: There's a vacuum or something underneath the gas cap preventing fuel delivery.

Only problem now: That vrooooom really takes off.....up past 6,000 rpm with no choke and stays there. Crap. I thought the float height check looked a little low...guess I'll have to mess with the carbs again. I'd like to give a shout out to my people: starwalt, edie500, sledge, srinath, rema1000! Jake D, you too for having a sense of humor :mrgreen:

Jake D · April 04, 2005, 12:34:01 PM

Great avatar, BTW. LoL.

Sorry I can't be of help.

eddie500 · April 04, 2005, 12:38:27 PM

I had a similar problem with my starter.. It went tat. tat etc.
After weeks of pondering what could it be, and planning on replacing the starter motor. All I needed to do was clean the negative battery terminal.

So clean both your positive and negative battery terminal and see if that fixes the problem.. Hopefully thats all you'll need to do.

Ry_Guy · April 04, 2005, 12:41:09 PM

Awesome. Thanks

eddie500 · April 04, 2005, 12:46:44 PM

Tell me if that fixes your problem though. Just wondering if this is a common thing.

starwalt · April 04, 2005, 06:37:06 PM

Also check to make certain that the negative side of the battery is making a good connection to the engine. Follow the wire to the right rear side of the engine, just above the right rear engine bolt. If that bolt is loose or has much corrosion, remove the connection and clean it until all metal looks like new money.

You can best see this from the right side an inch or two in front of the rear brake pedal.

Look at my avatar to see a bad starter motor.

sledge · April 05, 2005, 08:11:14 AM

Are you sure the battery is ok and all the connections are sound? The rat-tat-tat sound is caused by the solenoid dropping in and out. What happens when you press the start button is this. The solenoid pulls in and allows current to the starter motor. The starter motor then draws all the available current from the battery, then the solenoid drops out because it isnt gettting enough current to hold it in, this then turns off the currrent to the starter motor. The solenoid then pulls back in cos it now has enough current to keep it energised and the whole sequence starts again. Its either the battery not delivering enough current or a bad connection somewhere between the battery, the solenoid. the motor and then to earth.

starwalt · April 05, 2005, 08:25:26 AM

Quote from: sledgeIts either the battery not delivering enough current or a bad connection somewhere between the battery, the solenoid. the motor and then to earth.

Excellent synopsis!

FYI to US audiences, "earth" is aka "ground" , "system return", "0 VDC". This is the negative side of the battery that is connected to the engine/chassis.

Ry_Guy · April 05, 2005, 11:49:18 AM

Interesting stuff guys. Ok, the battery connections were clean, all wires and fuses in tip top condition. Battery fully charged. I bypassed the solenoid and got the same results, but without the solenoid's tat-tat-tat ofcourse. Starwalt, I followed the ground wire to the engine and found nothing corroded.
The only thing I can think of now is jump-starting it. Even though the battery is fully charged, it is a few years old. So you're right when you say

QuoteIts either the battery not delivering enough current or a bad connection somewhere between the battery, the solenoid. the motor and then to earth

.. I'll try that when I can and report the results.

Ry_Guy · April 06, 2005, 06:46:20 PM

Ok, I charged the battery to 13.03 Volts and got the same results:

Ry_Guy · April 06, 2005, 06:49:01 PM

btw starwald, that starter motor looks terrible. What did your bike do before that happened?

starwalt · April 06, 2005, 07:24:43 PM

Quote from: Ry_Guybtw starwald, that starter motor looks terrible. What did your bike do before that happened?

You can read all about it in my ongoing thread here.

(I've got battery start circuit analysis scope waveforms way into the thread.)

The short version is you do not want your starter clutch to seize on the crankshaft while riding around 40 mph. I bought the bike as a fixer upper from the guy that had the failure.

So charging the battery up AND jump starting gives the same result? It is possible that your battery is so far gone that even jumping fails. You could meter your battery voltage while the thing is trying to start. It should stay above 12 for a while before petering out.

Do you have a bud with a known good battery? Or better yet, take your battery out of the circuit and jump ONLY with the jump battery. Just take the + lead off your GS battery and clamp the + jumper lead to it. - jumper lead to the GS - on the battery.

Possibilites...
1) Way gone battery - yeah I know it said it looked good, but voltage output without a load is not a real test. That's why I suggest metering it while trying to crank the engine.
2) Too much engine resistance. If the engine is way harder than normal, i.e. too "tight", the starter motor current goes way up and sucks the battery really fast. This is not too likely because it was able to turn it once or twice before running out of juice. Worst case: engine lock down = near dead short across battery.

Here's another test:
->shut off the fuel petcock - the idea is to NOT start the engine.
->Pull the plugs out so that there is NO compression resistance.
->Turn the engine over with the GS battery just like you are trying to start it.
If the battery is good, it should turn and turn and turn until no juice and the "click click" you are too familiar with shows up. If it quits after a second or so, the battery has no capacity and must be replaced. (Sorry about that Chief!)
If it quits quickly, THEN do the same thing with the car/jumper method by disconnecting the + lead of the GS battery and connecting the jumper to the + cable of the GS. - of course to -.
If it spins its merry way for a minute or 12, the GS battery is just toast and you proved it with the alternate power source.

Rema1000 · April 06, 2005, 08:35:19 PM

If the problem were just lack of fuel, you wouldn't get the "click click click" from the starter solenoid.

With plugs out, and the bike in gear, can you turn the motor over using the rear wheel? You should be able to walk the bike forwards, even in 3rd gear. If the engine is siezed, then the starter might do that (not sure, never siezed an engine!).

Even if the battery is really poor, and the starter fried, you should be able to push-start (with a friend's help).

When you're trying to jump start it, it's easy to get a bad connection with the jumper cables. You should see some little sparks when you attach the cables.

Ry_Guy · April 07, 2005, 11:58:48 AM

Uh, thought the edit would bump it. See top of thread.

Rema1000 · April 07, 2005, 12:33:19 PM

Couple things: turn the choke lever off

. check that the spring at the end of the choke cable is actually pushing the choke off when you shut off the choke lever. Check that the idle stays constant when you turn the handlebars lack-to-lock.

starwalt · April 07, 2005, 02:37:16 PM

Alrighty then! You are now officially handed over from the electrical department to the aspirated engine department.

I am gratified to know our virtual assistance was beneficial. (Let's all sing Kum-by-yah).

You see, I will never have a fuel delivery problem with my E-Zuki....(yes, a deliberate teaser. Shhhh.)

sledge · April 08, 2005, 11:51:17 AM

Thanks for the Uk to Usa technical translation Starwalt. I forgot the majority of you are from the Usa

Cheers mate

News:

Starter motor is not weak-sauce!