Noob question, Shifting without clutch

[Toledo Jim]

OK, I'm new to this, however, it seems to me that I can shift smoother (up and down) WITHOUT using the clutch and blipping throttle, than using it.

Is this the way it should be? Or am I just stranger than the normal rider?  (Doesn't make sense to me).

Also am I damaging something by doing this?

[rritterson]

i don't know the details, but I've often read you can upshift without the clutch no problem, but downshifting without it can damage stuff.

[ANTVolt]

http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/shifting.html

I was just reading about that yesterday, I'm not very good at it without the clutch myself

[John Bates]

I'm not an expert but after one year of riding and trying both methods I conclude that one should use the method that gives the smoothest transition.

I usually get a smoother shift by using the clutch.  

(My opinion could change after more time in the saddle. )

[ukchickenlover]

I think racers shift up without the clutch but use the clutch shifting down.
For gentle riding I will use the clutch but for faster acceleration I will not, maybe a good Idea to use it for 1st to 2nd so you don't get neutral by mistake.

[Anonymous]

You CAN do damage shifting w/o the clutch if you "load up" on the shifter too much.  If you do it right, it should be fine.  With a wet clutch you'll keep the oil cleaner the less you use the clutch.  I still use the clutch most of the time.

[cay]

From http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/shifting.html :

f you want a graphic demonstration of some bad shifting, simply pull the clutch in, shift to neutral and then coast for a couple of seconds with the throttle shut off before upshifting or downshifting. Notice how much stiffer the shift lever feels, how slow the transmission is to shift and how clunky it sounds. It might even make a grinding noise as the dogs fight to engage. One example here should be enough, OK? The reason is the two transmission shafts, main and counter, are now way out of synchronization with one another. The countershaft is still being driven by the rear wheel while the mainshaft is being spun by the engine, but only at idle rpm...

So have you figured out why your bike clunks when going into first gear from neutral while stopped? Yep, the countershaft is stopped while the mainshaft is being spun by the engine. Your oil-bath clutch has some drag, especially when the engine is cold and doesn�t disengage all the way.

Did the author suggest here that changing from neutral to first while stopped is unnecessarily hard on engagement dogs / gears or did I misread this?

C

[Hi-T]

Use the clutch going down- Shifting up works because as you let off the throttle you unload the engine.  Shifting down, that's a tough thing to do.  Use the clutch, blip the throttle and let it out when it matches.

Shifting up is easy- especially if you're running through the gears super fast.  Although I always use the clutch coming out of first.

By preloading the shifter with your toe before shifting, you'll notice that you'll only need or use about a 1/4 of the clutch you'd normally use.  It's more like tapping the clutch than pulling the clutch.

[tussey]

I've heard about this....so I tried it the other day. When I normally shift instead of pulling the clutch in I just tried to shift up and the shifter wouldn't budge. Only tried it once then went back to my usual way of doing it. Can someone explain what I'm supposed to do? Thanks 

[sclay115]

I've heard about this....so I tried it the other day. When I normally shift instead of pulling the clutch in I just tried to shift up and the shifter wouldn't budge. Only tried it once then went back to my usual way of doing it. Can someone explain what I'm supposed to do? Thanks 

I used to do this all the time on my Bandit 400 when I had it. Became second nature. The way I did it, as described to me by a bunch of Track day folks, is to gently apply pressure on the shift lever with your foot while still accelerating. Then, when you want to shift, just roll out of the throttle, not alot, or it will really upset the chassis, but just a little, and it should literally just pop into gear, just like that. And for me at least, at lower speeds, we are talking about just barely moving your wrist, you'll feel it if you practice.

Benefits? Wicked fast upshifting if you get it right(takes time). Reduced clutch wear, really though, if you don't use it all the time, I doubt it makes a HUGE difference.

Downsides? Wicked fast upshifting, makes you wanna go faster just so you can do it more. 


Steve

[annguyen1981]

On the GS, I got to the point were I could shift without the clutch VERY smoothly.

I only opted to do it when I really needed to accelerate fast without the hassle of pulling the clutch.  ie: passing on the highway.

[RVertigo]

Like sclay said tussey...   Like this....


When you're *about* to shift, put up-pressure on the shifter (You don't need much), then you "blip" the throttle and it'll let you slide it into gear.

It works best when you're under hard accelleration...  I have a hard time getting a smooth shift when I'm going slow...  So, I use the clutch for those.


You will have to practice it...     And if you don't trash your trans, you'll get good at it and be able to shift fast-as-hell.

[domas]

... all that, and then one day make a post like me "help my gearbox makes strange noises".
Sure racers do it, but they get new gearbox every race and your GS will be stuck with it for em ... 10 years?
It's very simple, trashing your bike for a bit more performance. Your choice.

But this is only my opinion, no hard facts. 

[pantablo]

... all that, and then one day make a post like me "help my gearbox makes strange noises".
Sure racers do it, but they get new gearbox every race and your GS will be stuck with it for em ... 10 years?

actually its far more than just highly sponsored racers. lots of us trackday hacks and club racers do it. I have 14k miles on my bike, mostly clutchless upshifting (even some clutchless downshifting) and still going strong.

I can be much smoother clutchless, but thats only on hard accellerations, not around town riding. For that I *barely* use the clutch (as in, barely pull it in just enough to let the shifter snick into the next gear).

if you preload the shifter and when you want to shift just *barely* roll off the throttle for a split second, then back on the throttle the gear shift will slide right in. you dont "blip" the throttle (rvertigo ). If you're riding around town or commuting its not likely to be useful to you. in the canyons or on the track it'll be much more useful.

btw-holy thread resurrection batman...

[RVertigo]

you dont "blip" the throttle (rvertigo ).

OK...  Reverse Blip....   Anti-Blip......   Quick down, then back up.......   Full, Less than full, then full again......



I call it a blip...  Meaning a small change.  I did neglect to mention that is was a DOWN THROTTLE change.   



And...  I clutchless shift every day...  'cause my tendonitis hurts like hell...   

[annguyen1981]

It might be easier to think of it this way...

imagine your throttle "off".
roll the throttle...  I'd say probably around 1/8" - 1/4...
THAT'S where you should be able to "bump" the shift lever upwards.  "Slide" might be a better word...

[Toledo Jim]

btw-holy thread resurrection batman...

+1

Wow, glad to see everyone is still here helping others.

I still do it myself, just seems easier and so much smoother to me.

Jim

[domas]

actually its far more than just highly sponsored racers. lots of us trackday hacks and club racers do it. I have 14k miles on my bike, mostly clutchless upshifting (even some clutchless downshifting) and still going strong.

Is it on your old GS or on the 600? I do believe that new supersports gearboxes are build for that. Maybe i just have too little faith in GS technology 

[quinnbozz]

i'd be willing to bet many of us have shifted without the clutch and didn't even realize we done it. for me the first time i did it was just cause i forgot to squeze . my left hand is normaly just restin on the wheel (stering wheel)
for me, ever sense i sterted driving, i'v driven manual everything mainly my truck. i dont bearly use the clutch in that anymore eather.

likewise in a truck or on a bike you bascily do everything the same as when using the clutch.

what do you do normaly
you roll on, look at the tac/feel the bike/-whatever you personaly do to know it is time to shift, then simotaenously -(if ya havent realized yet i suck at spelling)- roll off gas & squize in clutch, then shift, and back on the gas ect.

clutchless the only diff. to me is no squizing

note: unless you are way stronger than you realize you can apply quite a good amount of pressure with your foot to the shift lever and it wont do a thing till you "blip" "goose" "un-blip" "roll" whatever you want to call it. the throttle

[Kasumi]

Upshifting clutchless is very useful in hard acceleration, its definatly smoother and it doesn't lag the bike as there is very little time without the engine powering you forwards. When going slow i always use the clutch, in hard accelration situations i may choose to shift up clutchlessly. I always use the clutch when shifting down, especially on a new bike or a powerful bike as if you get the rev matching wrong when you shift down your revs skyrocket but also the back wheel can lock up into a skid.