Noob question, Shifting without clutch

[RVertigo]

I've never tried to downshift without the clutch...  And I don't plan to try.

Even when I was driving my F.I.L.'s diesel truck and he insisted that I don't use the clutch, I found it easy to upshift, but I couldn't downshift.   

[natedawg120]

you can downshift without the clutch, just have to do it exactly backwards of upshifting.  You decelerate to a point then blip the throttle up a little.  The bad thing is that it can jerk the rear wheel, which is bad esp if turning.  Thus i shift up all the time clutchless but never down.  I like to control how the clutch catches going down to keep myself from doing the asphalt shuffle

[tussey]

So I tried it today, worked on the first try, pretty badass. Although I need alot of work I did it a few more times and a few were smooth most were violent jerks.

I'm wondering is it smoother to clutchless only under hard acceleration. The bike seemed to jump more when I was just crusining and wanted to upshift to the next gear and seemed smoother when I was pulling pretty hard.

[NiceGuysFinishLast]

For me, it's definitely smoother under hard acceleration.

[natedawg120]

hard acceleration works best.  however anything above 8k rpm seems to be ok.  Any less and it will want to jerk and you will have to use more force to shift.  I don't like to use force to clutchless shift while just cruising so I use the clutch.  I really don't want to replace the tranny internals anytime soon. 

[oppy00]

My experience with this is that the shift is always smooth if done properly.  At some speeds and engine speeds it does seem that the window of opportunity is bigger than others.  Downshifting without the clutch is not a problem, it just requires more thought and you tend to unsettle the back tire doing so, which in most situations is manageable, but why risk it (unless you are riding one handed because you didn't feel like finishing your milkshake at Hardee's, and it is only a few blocks home, a story for another time, though) 

Let's face it the GS is no speed demon, even if you get on it really hard you won't be setting any acceleration records.  However, it can be fun to let the little shetland pony stretch its nubby legs.  So, if you are just cruisin' around town use the clutch and don't be a lazy turd.  When you want to feel the full fury of the twin japanese hamsters go clutchless.  I would recomend learning to do this in a somewhat controlled situation.  I know from experience that it can be disconcerting to try to upshift without the clutch under hard accelleration and not make it into the next gear.  I don't know about your bike, but my little GS engine breaks pretty hard, especially at higher rpms.

[nightrider]

shetland pony... nubby legs... twin japanese hamsters... LOL!

whatever, MY gs is badASS.

I tried the clutchless shift and it was rough/jerky and made me cringe. Maybe I'm not doing it right. However in a escape & evade or hot pursuit situation it could come in handy. maybe I'll keep practicing this one.

[PapaFox]

It definately is a skill that improves with a little practice. Even around town where I rarely get above 70-kph, I very rarely use the clutch unless accelerating very slowly. As far as decelerating, still clutchless, and very seldom do I even feel that I've changed down a gear, even going into 1st. Of course, I'm usually doing a fairly gentle slow down around town, definately not maximum braking. The key is knowing when the revs match for each gear... nothing to stress over as it just comes naturally with a little practice.

[RVertigo]

When you're all old and broken like me, your tendonitis convinces you that your trans will be just fine when you don't use the clutch. 

[nightrider]

Today had some flawless clutchless from 3rd to 4th ... couple times felt very natural.

but 2nd to 3rd was a little rougher. I'd rev it to 7k and ease off throttle, it wouldn't go, rev it higher, then it'd work roughly. Jerk the whole bike.

On the good ones, I was in 3rd going 45-50 indicated, revved to 6k or 7k, decelerated and it shifted smooth into 4th about 3k-5k. 2nd gear was a little different. More practice.

[RVertigo]

I still screw up 1-2 sometimes...  LLT and Clutchless Shifting don't mix. 

[domas]

It definately is a skill that improves with a little practice. Even around town where I rarely get above 70-kph, I very rarely use the clutch unless accelerating very slowly. As far as decelerating, still clutchless, and very seldom do I even feel that I've changed down a gear, even going into 1st. Of course, I'm usually doing a fairly gentle slow down around town, definately not maximum braking. The key is knowing when the revs match for each gear... nothing to stress over as it just comes naturally with a little practice.

How can you match the revs if you are not using the clutch? Or you mean match the revs by changing speed?

[TarzanBoy]

The term for what you guys are doing (clutchless shifting) is called 'power shifting'.   The conventional wisdom is that it increases the wear and tear on the gears/tranny.   It can be a useful skill to have (especially if your clutch cable snaps mid-ride like my R6 did once), but for me the negatives far outweigh the positives, so I don't ever do it.

[Gisser]

As far as decelerating, still clutchless, and very seldom do I even feel that I've changed down a gear, even going into 1st. Of course, I'm usually doing a fairly gentle slow down around town, definately not maximum braking. The key is knowing when the revs match for each gear...

How can you match the revs if you are not using the clutch? Or you mean match the revs by changing speed?

Well, I think the technique for clutchless downshifts has been misstated in this thread.  Instead of shifting when rolling off the throttle--as with upshifts--the downshift is made while rolling on the throttle so the revs are heading in the right direction to make up the difference.  It's not easy to do smoothly and, as previously stated, is useful for riding with a broken clutch cable and little else.  Not useful for sportriding unless you like flirting with disaster.     

[Gisser]

The term for what you guys are doing (clutchless shifting) is called 'power shifting'.   

I believe power shifting is a level more crude than clutchless shifting.  IOW, don't even back off the throttle. 

[nightrider]

I'd think it'd be rough on the clutch too. It can't be good for it. Definitely makes more noise unless its done absolutely perfect, and even then there's a bit of a jerk. If only my bike could talk.

This is a good trick for stoplight racing against hoodlums. I am compelled to try it a little more but if conventional wisdom says its hard on the clutch then I'll stick with normal.

[RVertigo]

It's not hard on the clutch...  You don't even use the clutch.

Some say that it's hard on your gearbox...  But, I wouldn't take *certain people's* "conventional wisdom" on face value.   

[nightrider]

just seems like with that sudden somewhat violent jerk/snap/pop that tends to happen it would wear the dogs or whatever the f is inside my bike faster. Still, I did it today, and it was fun.

[Toledo Jim]

Wow, 7 replies initially, then, more than a year and a half later, 30 new replies,  Very interesting ! 

btw: With practice there isn't any more "sudden somewhat violent jerk/snap/pop" when doing this, than there is shifting while using the clutch without practice.

To each his own.

Peace and ride safe.

Jim

[natedawg120]

Its not hard on the gearbox or clutch.  As Rvertigo said, you don't even use the clutch.  Motorcylce trannys are designed to be shifted while in motion, particularly forward motion.  That is why it is often times hard to downshift after you have stopped if you didn't do it while slowing before the stop.  If using the right technique it will be smooth and you will hear a click into gear, much like that of a clutched shift.