Wimpy back tire?

[Roadstergal]

hey favorably affect the handling of the bike, what's the argument here? whether it's the tires or wider wheels, the final outcome is bigger is better. and that is better than stock.

No, I'm talking about the compound of the tire.  Stickier compound in the same size is a fair comparison; stock tire in a larger size is a fair comparison.  Stickier tire in a larger size - two variables.  And I would say that compound matters more than size.

[JetSwing]

if everyone can agree on the fact that you can better tires in bigger size AND they favorably affect the handling of the bike, what's the argument here? whether it's the tires or wider wheels, the final outcome is bigger is better. and that is better than stock.

Yeah, you can get much stickier rubber on the bigger tires which will help you stick to the ground better, but I'm not sure how it would affect the flickability of the GS. That's one thing I absolutely love about the GS is how utterly throwable it is.

well, that's what i'vew been trying to tell you. it's not just the stickiness of the tire. every aspect of handling has improved including the flickability. it rolls on alot smoother and effortlessly. when i was on stock, i felt like i had to use my weight so much more to lean. that's why i said with the 150 setup i have, it feel alot like a sports bike now.

i guess you wouldn't believe me till you experienced it yourself...

[Badger]

And I would say that compound matters more than size.

And which is "better" depends entirely on what you're using it for, and what you're expecting of it.

Which reminds me...I need to get new snows for my car.

[Badger]

every aspect of handling has improved including the flickability. it rolls on alot smoother and effortlessly.

So...this is bothering me now.

I could be being daft, but I don't understand how the width of the rear tire would alter the rate at which the bike leans against it's pivot.  Perhaps the increased height of the tires raises the moment arm of the bike.  If anything, I'd think "flickability" would have more to do with the front tire than the rear...altering the trail and the turning geometry of the bike.  I suppose it's also possible that tires with more mass would add some amount of gyroscopic stability to the bike (although probably by a negligible amount)...so depending on how much precession actually contributes to leaning it could help (but again: on the front tire, not the rear).

Sorry...I'm babbling again.

when i was on stock, i felt like i had to use my weight so much more to lean.

Ummm...you don't use your weight to lean a motorcycle--you use your weight to alter the required lean angle.  The front wheel takes care of the leaning.  No?  

[JetSwing]

hey favorably affect the handling of the bike, what's the argument here? whether it's the tires or wider wheels, the final outcome is bigger is better. and that is better than stock.

No, I'm talking about the compound of the tire.  Stickier compound in the same size is a fair comparison; stock tire in a larger size is a fair comparison.  Stickier tire in a larger size - two variables.  And I would say that compound matters more than size.

the only point i was trying to make was...putting a wider tire on gs does not adversely affect the handling of the bike. that's it!

[JetSwing]

when i was on stock, i felt like i had to use my weight so much more to lean.

Ummm...you don't use your weight to lean a motorcycle--you use your weight to alter the required lean angle.  The front wheel takes care of the leaning.  No?  

hahaha...you lost me there  

[scratch]

I wonder if the stock tire size would be better in the rain? On that note, I prefer skinnier tires because of the rain. The 110/80 front BT45 was skittish in the rain, while the 130/70 rear was planted, but also realize that suspension had a lot to with that as well.

[Roadstergal]

One thing that also complicates this is that tire comparisons are usually done from old tires to new tires - at a time when the old tire sucks so much that you don't want to ride on it anymore.  And a lot of street bike tires, at that point, are worn flat in the middle, so they resist lean.

And ja, countersteering does more to initiate lean, weight does more to change lean angle.

[RVertigo]

It's not the size of the tire, it's the speed of the rotation...  Or something.

[Badger]

when i was on stock, i felt like i had to use my weight so much more to lean.

Ummm...you don't use your weight to lean a motorcycle--you use your weight to alter the required lean angle.  The front wheel takes care of the leaning.  No?  

hahaha...you lost me there  

Well, take a hypothetical situation:

Get a motorcycle up to speed, remove your hands from the handlebars, and shift your weight to one side (assume constant throttle).  My understanding (not having tried this) is that the bike will continue fairly straight.  Watch some video of the nutjobs standing on their tanks for an illustration of this.  Then, get a motorcycle up to speed and-without shifting any weight at all (think sack of potatoes)-press on the right handlebar.  The bike will lean over to the right.  

Further, if you lean to the left and push on the right handlebar, the bike will lean right.  If you recall from MSF, the way they teach the swerve is to maintain your weight over the center of the bike, but press on opposite sides of the bars to rapidly lean in opposite directions.  Thus, no body weight is used to affect the lean.

Motorcycles are laterallly stable at speed.  This is important.  You don't "balance" a motorcycle, it stays up all by itself despite your efforts.  In fact, you have to work to throw a motorcycle out of balance by altering its geometry to get it to turn.  This is the purpose of the rake angle of the front forks, and why countersteering works.

The purpose of dramatically shifting weight to the inside of the turn ("hanging off") has nothing to do with changing the "rate of lean", but instead allows the bike to make the same radius at the same speed with a reduced lean angle.

Does that make sense?

[Badger]

I wonder if the stock tire size would be better in the rain?

*slaps forehead*

I'm pretty sure that tread pattern and tire compound are the major contributors to wet-weather traction.   :lol:

[Roadstergal]

I forgot to answer the original question...

Do you ever ride behind your bike?

Not unless something's gone very wrong!

[scratch]

It's not the size of the tire, it's the speed of the rotation...  Or something.

Are you speaking of how the circumference of the tire reduces as you lean the bike over, thus reducing your gearing?

[scratch]

Get a motorcycle up to speed, remove your hands from the handlebars, and shift your weight to one side (assume constant throttle).  My understanding (not having tried this) is that the bike will continue fairly straight.  Watch some video of the nutjobs standing on their tanks for an illustration of this.

Like riding no-hands on a bicycle and turning? Unlike riding a bicycle, a motorcycle is much heavier and the rims, while being smaller, are heavier (re: greater centrifugal force), and you have a much larger contact patch than a bicycle; all of this which makes body steering more difficult to affect the steering of the bike, can still be done.

[dionysus]

Motorcycles are laterallly stable at speed.  This is important.  You don't "balance" a motorcycle, it stays up all by itself despite your efforts.  In fact, you have to work to throw a motorcycle out of balance by altering its geometry to get it to turn.  This is the purpose of the rake angle of the front forks, and why countersteering works.

I think what badger needed to make a little more clear here is that, yes you CAN hang off the side of a motorcycle and turn it, its just damned hard where the proper technique is a lot easier and doesn't use your weight.

As for the bicycle-no-hands-turn analogy, when I lean over (no hands) to the right on my GS500 at 50 or so it leans to the left and we keep going straight.

[scratch]

I wonder if the stock tire size would be better in the rain?

*slaps forehead*

I'm pretty sure that tread pattern and tire compound are the major contributors to wet-weather traction.

Would a wider tire be more prone to hydroplaning?

[Badger]

Like riding no-hands on a bicycle and turning? Unlike riding a bicycle, a motorcycle is much heavier and the rims, while being smaller, are heavier, and you have a much larger contact patch than a bicycle; all of this which makes body steering more difficult to affect the steering of the bike, can still be done.

Right:

is that the bike will continue fairly straight.

It's not that it has -no- effect...it just has a negligible effect at any significant velocity.  Bicycles--while also stable--are less stable than motorcycles due to differences in mass.  The differences between a bicycle and motorcycle (for the purposes of the physics) are mass and velocity.

'Course...I could just be full of  

[JetSwing]

when i was on stock, i felt like i had to use my weight so much more to lean.

Ummm...you don't use your weight to lean a motorcycle--you use your weight to alter the required lean angle.  The front wheel takes care of the leaning.  No?  

hahaha...you lost me there  

Well, take a hypothetical situation:

Get a motorcycle up to speed, remove your hands from the handlebars, and shift your weight to one side (assume constant throttle).  My understanding (not having tried this) is that the bike will continue fairly straight.  Watch some video of the nutjobs standing on their tanks for an illustration of this.  Then, get a motorcycle up to speed and-without shifting any weight at all (think sack of potatoes)-press on the right handlebar.  The bike will lean over to the right.  

Further, if you lean to the left and push on the right handlebar, the bike will lean right.  If you recall from MSF, the way they teach the swerve is to maintain your weight over the center of the bike, but press on opposite sides of the bars to rapidly lean in opposite directions.  Thus, no body weight is used to affect the lean.

Motorcycles are laterallly stable at speed.  This is important.  You don't "balance" a motorcycle, it stays up all by itself despite your efforts.  In fact, you have to work to throw a motorcycle out of balance by altering its geometry to get it to turn.  This is the purpose of the rake angle of the front forks, and why countersteering works.

The purpose of dramatically shifting weight to the inside of the turn ("hanging off") has nothing to do with changing the "rate of lean", but instead allows the bike to make the same radius at the same speed with a reduced lean angle.

Does that make sense?

badger, i'm really sorry i asked. i think your could have wrote a book there...

the purpose of "hanging off" is to make the same radius at faster speed. i think that makes more sense.

all this is going way off topic but i'll say when you are carving corners, you have to shift your body position. with that, you weight gets shifted to the laning side. your weight does play a roll in leaning.

i don't know...i think you might have taken my statement ("i felt like i had to use my weight so much more to lean") too seriously.

no! i do not just throw my body around in order lean.

:mrgreen:

[JetSwing]

I wonder if the stock tire size would be better in the rain?

*slaps forehead*

I'm pretty sure that tread pattern and tire compound are the major contributors to wet-weather traction.

Would a wider tire be more prone to hydroplaning?

Would a wider tire be more prone to getting roadkills?

[Badger]

badger, i'm really sorry i asked. i think your could have wrote a book there...

I'm not known for my short-windedness.    

all this is going way off topic

Since when does anything ever stay on topic?  At least no one brought up lesbians... :mrgreen: