how do I fix an oil leak from my output shaft?

[JamesG]

I said "I" would replace the seal as per the Suzuki Factory manual's recommended method, not beat it into place with a hammer.

Red has gotten the advice from the peanut gallery. He can decide what to do himself. At this point You are just being a condescending dickhead.

[sledge]

James.

Its just my opinion, which we are all entitled to.

[Blueknyt]

there is only one PROPER WAY

other methodes MAY work but are NOT correct regaurdless how long they last. Debate it how ever you like, spliting the cases is the PROPER AND CORRECT WAY to do it.  If he feels he can then great, he will read the book and see. If not he will pay somone else to do it.


To fix a leak you must fix the sealing area, period.

[sledge]

I disagree with the suggestion that splitting the cases is the correct and only way........why??.

couple of links for anyone interested.


http://www.lawson-his.co.uk/sealey/product.php?product=22294&source=froogle
 
This is a tool used by myself on many occasions and no doubt by many other Professional Engineers and Mechanics to remove seals, if Red Phil buys one he can forget about the self tapping screws and make the job even easier for himself. With this the, seal will be out in seconds! Ever seen one James?? did you know they even exist??



http://www.acorn-ind.co.uk/products/maintenance.htm#fitting


Second item down..Fitting kit

Its a tube, on the end of which you fit  different sized rings that match up to the outside diameter of the seal (or bearing for that matter), the tube fits over the output shaft, you hold it squarely against the seal/bearing and tap it home...easy. Now given that tools like this are available to people in the know, please convince me ....and others     WHY     an engine HAS to be dismantled, at great cost and inconvenience just to replace the seal. I doubt very very much a Suzuki or any other dealer would go to the trouble of stripping an engine to change a seal and pass on the huge costs to the customer when they can use tools like this.
So if you are still insisting on removing and stripping engines to replace seals I will do you a favour.....I will come round to yours, I will bring the gear and I will change it for you in the time it takes you to make a cup of coffee and all I will ask for is half of what a dealer quotes to do it by the method you insist is the correct one.

[Blueknyt]

Sledge have you done this on a GS yet?  unless you Made your own seal installation tool specificly to go over the shaft and still support the inside lips of the inner seal while not marring the seal bore  before getting the outer seal in, and hopeing you didnt push the inner seal to far to bind up on the bearing, then i would really have to doubt it.   that seal installation kit is useless as the output shaft is still in the bike, the FITTED round parts are held onto that "tube" by a center bolt which means its solid and Can NOT slip over the outputshaft.  you MIGHT be able to get that seal remover tool into that cramped area and MIGHT not scar up the shaft while trying to Pry out a deep, case compressed and hardend seal its one hell of a crap shoot i wouldnt, nor would i allow anyone else to take with my bike.  If i knew for a fact a shop did it that way, it wouldnt get my business ever again.

In some cases you can get away with an external R&R of a seal, This is not one of them. IF you did manage it, My hat is off to you. not everyone will be so lucky.  in this perticular instance, the chances of screwing something up are high. specialy for a newb learning how to wrench.    Im also a firm beliver in "If you can read, you can do it"    i would rather have a newb split the cases and do it right before looking for the more advanced shade tree sneeky pete method so many of us use.

[sledge]

I think you are just clutching at straws now, where exactly is this bolt you talk about?? the fitting kit rings ARE NOT held in place with a bolt, they are spiggoted and are a push fit on the end of the tube. There is no mention of bolts in the description. These kits are also used to fit bearings so its of no use if you cant knock them into a shaft. Lip seals are what is termed an interference fit in the casing ie. a tight fit, they dont rely on the the clamping effect of the two case halves to hold them but the fact they are tight in the housing. There are several other lip seals used in a GS engine the selecter shaft and the one behind the ignition advancer for instance........How do you fit them and how do they stay in place when the case is not split there?? How are fork seals fitted?? they are the same thing. Deep cased seal??? but its a flush fit with the casing.  Scar the shaft??? If like any other tool its used correctly its unlikely and unless you have used one you shouldnt comment.
The only way I would let a dealer at it is if it was a warranty repair and I wouldnt be bothered how he did it so long as it was guaranteed, in fact I would prefer its done in this way as there is no chance of a ham-fisted mechanic  damaging something internal during the stripdown or making a mistake, and saying nothing in case he gets in trouble. Its no wonder dealers make so much money. The GS engine is simple and straightforward but what if you had a Hayabusa or some other exotica.....would you still be prepared to pay to have that stripped down etc etc. I cant understand the fact you dont trust a dealer to do it the simple way but would trust him to strip the engine and rebuild it. either way you are putting your faith in him and his word so whats the problem??To answer the earlier question I havent replaced the seal on my GS but I have looked at it and weighed it up........my opinion is and always has been that it is ridicoulously easy to change in the manner described. So come on.... convince me why the case has to split OR leave the engineering to the engineers.

[JamesG]

To answer the earlier question I havent replaced the seal on my GS but I have looked at it and weighed it up........my opinion is and always has been that it is ridicoulously easy to change in the

I was going to let this thread go, but since you insist on making an ass of yourself.  Look at this drawing:

http://houseofmotorcycles.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/oem_schematic_view~schem_dept_id~704939~section_dept_id~1~section_dept_name~OEM+%28Stock%29+Parts~dept_type_id~2~model_dept_year~2001~model_dept_mfr~Suzuki~model_dept_id~703275~model_dept_name~GS500K1.asp#stay

Zoom in on where the output shaft goes, yes its partially obscured, but its the best diagram of the location in question I could find. D you see the lip in the case?  That is where the oil seal goes.  It CAN NOT be removed much less replaced without splitting the cases. The outter rubber cover which I think you are assuming is THE oil seal is really just a dust cover over the actual seal. Even getting that off and on will be a PITA because of the shaft diameter and usual crud and corrosion found there. But that won't fix the problem, because it is leaking thru the mail seal, not just the little outer rubber one. So all your half-assed method would do is buy yourself maybe a few hundred miles at most before it started leaking again.

Tell us again how an expert engineer such as yourself doesn't know that?

[sledge]

I have already looked at ths drawing, I looked at before I first made any comments. I dont see a shoulder where you describe, I see the exact oposite. I see a housing with 2 diameters, an inner one to accomodate the bearing and a second outer diameter BIGGER than the first where the seal locates. There is NO indication of a shoulder in this bigger diameter.  Now look at the transmission drwg.

http://houseofmotorcycles.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/oem_schematic_view~schem_dept_id~709321~section_dept_id~1~section_dept_name~OEM+%28Stock%29+Parts~dept_type_id~2~model_dept_year~1995~model_dept_mfr~Suzuki~model_dept_id~703268~model_dept_name~GS500ES.asp

Are you telling me that part 35 is the actual seal and 32 is just a dust cover? I dont think so. Part 35 looks to me to be a spacer that is a sandwich fit between the outer race of the bearing 34 and the seal 32, its purpose being to prevent the seal from being driven too far into the casing and making contact with the bearing while holding it square at the same time, look closely and you will see 6 lugs on the spacer that the inside outer diameter of the seal rests against when its in position. This part will not rotate with the shaft as it makes contact with 2 stationary components

James
Iits not my intention to appear condesending or make an ass out of anyone and I will ignore your comments and not take offence. I am trying to prove and back the fact up to the people in this forum that the seal can be replaced using the tools and method I described without having to go to the trouble and cost of dismantling the engine. So far I have seen no conclusive evidence that it cant be done other than your opinions and incorrect assumptions. Lets go back to V8Pintos comments, he claims to have done the job with no problem, so where was the lip in his casing?? Answer.....it wasnt there to start with.

[sledge]

I have already looked at ths drawing, I looked at before I first made any comments. I dont see a shoulder where you describe, I see the exact oposite. I see a housing with 2 diameters, an inner one to accomodate the bearing and a second outer diameter BIGGER than the first where the seal locates. There is NO indication of a shoulder in this bigger diameter.  Now look at the transmission drwg.

http://houseofmotorcycles.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/oem_schematic_view~schem_dept_id~709321~section_dept_id~1~section_dept_name~OEM+%28Stock%29+Parts~dept_type_id~2~model_dept_year~1995~model_dept_mfr~Suzuki~model_dept_id~703268~model_dept_name~GS500ES.asp

Are you telling me that part 35 is the actual seal and 32 is just a dust cover? I dont think so. Part 35 looks to me to be a spacer that is a sandwich fit between the outer race of the bearing 34 and the seal 32, its purpose being to prevent the seal from being driven too far into the casing and making contact with the bearing while holding it square at the same time, look closely and you will see 6 lugs on the spacer that the inside outer diameter of the seal rests against when its in position. This part will not rotate with the shaft as it makes contact with 2 stationary components

James
Iits not my intention to appear condesending or make an ass out of anyone and I will ignore your comments and not take offence. I am trying to prove and back the fact up to the people in this forum that the seal can be replaced using the tools and method I described without having to go to the trouble and cost of dismantling the engine. So far I have seen no conclusive evidence that it cant be done other than your opinions and incorrect assumptions. Lets go back to V8Pintos comments, he claims to have done the job with no problem, so where was the lip in his casing?? Answer.....it wasnt there to start with.

[red_phil]

- Red_Phil wanders along a quiet lane (his bike is in pieces right now)
- Red_Phil sees something on the ground.
"hmm, that looks like a can" says Red_Phil. "I wonder what is in it"
"oh look it would apear to be worms"
- Red_phil wanders off hoping nobody noticed he opened up a can of worms.


I have opened up engines before, but not on my main means of transport.
The problem is not so much I donlt think I could do this but that it would take too long.
I don't work quickly and everyone knows the once you open up an engine you WILL find
more needing replaced.

Currently I am wondering if my leak may be due to a bent output shaft.
I haven't watched the sprocket go round yet so I don't know.
My chain snapped a few months back. is it possible that this may have bent the
output shaft?

[sledge]

Could well be the problem Phil, if it is the case you have no option but to dismantle the engine!

While I am in here this link if for James, it tells you in simple terms what Radial shaft seals are all about.

http://www.acorn-ind.co.uk/products/proil.htm

[JamesG]

I HAVE taken GS engines apart and have looked at the bearing and seal surfaces. And I can tell you that the bearing and inner seal (part #35 on the diagram) are captive by the cases.  Two people here have told you that you can't do it, but you insist on being right. Whatever.

Could well be the problem Phil, if it is the case you have no option but to dismantle the engine!

What?  No great shortcut for straightening a bent shaft in place? I am shocked!

While I am in here this link if for James, it tells you in simple terms what Radial shaft seals are all about.

Ah, here we go with the condesenion again...

[sledge]

Again James all I have to go off is your word, I want hard evidence before I will except what you say, so far you havent been able to supply it.  2 people say it cant be done true, but at least 1 other claims it can and that he has in fact done it!! I have also provided details of suitable tools designed to do the job which have been dismissed. I have also provided makers information relating to lip seals and  fitting methods. You claim there is a lip holding the seal in the case and its shown in the drawing, sorry it just doesnt exist. Even common sense says why put it there when it serves no useful purpose but to complicate future repairs.
Case hardened shafts (ask if you dont know what this means) can be straightened, out of situ by specialist heat-treatment and engineering firms but its a costly process and in this case not viable. Would you like another link to back this fact up?? Perhaps James you could quote a figure for what is an accecptable amount of run-out for the shaft. (Oh sorry that was condesending as only a experienced engineer will know that) I would also like you to  talk me and the others through the process of actually replacing the shaft as you have split the cases before. I have not, and would be very interested to hear how its done. I will be particularly interested to know exactly how you remove all the interefernce fit bearings and gears from the shaft, how you refit them to the new shaft and what parts will need replacement during the strip down and rebuild. I would like more detail than "by using a press"  which no doubt you have access to.
I am still waiting for your return comments regarding fittment of fork-seals and others  in housings which dont split and for you to state just 1 good reason why there should be a lip in the casing.

[Grainbelt]

How do I fix a leak from my output shaft?

Uhh, visit the urologist.  :dunno:

[Blueknyt]

I havent replaced the seal on my GS but I have looked at it and weighed it up

have you even opened up a GS case or checked one out with your own hands? Drawings are a nice guidline, but the addage "If you can see it you can reach it" doesnt always work in realife.  

the seal/bearing isntall tool is a basic driving tool with differnt sized "Die" or Cup for basic sized bearings or seals.  MOST of these that one can purchase use a Bolt or threaded section on the end to attach the "CUP" to the driving tool.  The Cup is generaly flat to support the outer and inner race at the same time.  This is often done WHILE the shaft is absent from the bearing bore.   Most bearing installing tools use a hammering method, while others use a threaded rod and an ancor to PULL the bearing into place either way the whole bearing is supported.    when using the Driving Cup type tool to install seals, the outer part is still supported by the cup and can safely be driven into the bore with the SHAFT REMOVED.  

A SPECIALY designed Seal driver does exist t, but is not readily accessable to the home mechanic NOR is it cheap and still takes a bit of practice to use correctly without damaging shaft or seal.

Are you telling me that part 35 is the actual seal and 32 is just a dust cover? I dont think so.

Then you would be wrong as it does have sealing surfaces on the shaft side.

one behind the ignition advancer for instance........How do you fit them and how do they stay in place when the case is not split there?? How are fork seals fitted?? they are the same thing. Deep cased seal??? but its a flush fit with the casing.  

ok, lets see here.  one behind the advancer is to be installed with the case cover removed, its much easyer to make sure its properly set and not knocked through or up against the crank gear.

Fork seals : are installed into the fork leg with the Tube removed ....(you should read up on that while your at it.)

The same thing? not hardly


Deep case seal, the inner seal sits deeper inside then the outer seal.

the case isnt split there? your dreaming right? need i get a pic of both upper and lower cases?  with the engine upside down, everything is laid down into their seats,  a noncuring sealing agent like yamabond, suzuki bond #1207b (from the book) is layed out on the case mateing surfaces including where the seals sit. the bottom case is put in place and torqued down.  those seals get compressed by this. between the sealant and heat cooking the rubber coating on the seal, that seal doesnt come out easy.

You know what, Untill you have done it,  you really dont know, your guessing.  while you might not belive what your told by everyone you meet, you should listen to those who HAVE done it and have the expierience Vs speculation.  while you seem to have a good level inteligents your argueing your guess work against  folks whom have had the facts in hand numerous times and KNOW.  Now please, accept that you DO NOT know and have NOT delt with this perticular case before.  

While i belive if you can work on a car you can work on most anything as the princibles are the same.  you cant apply all techniques to everything.



Can it be done without pulling the engine and spliting the case, Sure.  But i wouldnt put my trust into someone who did it nor would i trust thier work on my equipment. the best way is the proper way in this case.  its time consuming but the hardest part is getting the engine out and back into the frame, the rest is just time consuming.

[Badger]

How do I fix a leak from my output shaft?

Uhh, visit the urologist.  :dunno:

Take some pennicillin, that should clear it right up.  Oh...and in the future, be more careful where you put your output shaft.

[pandy]

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

My monitor needed a good cleaning anyway....  :lol:

[sledge]

Take a close look at the pic of the fitting kit in the link.....see the tubes?? all 3 of them?? They are the handles one in side of each other?? For that to happen they must be hollow agreed?? I know the type of fitment kit you are talking about, flat discs held onto a bar with a wingnut. This type is not the same as the type you mention, it uses a series of plastic discs with a hole in the center, the disc clips onto the outer diameter of the tube and the shaft passes through the center of the disc and into the handle/tube. Look closely and you will see exactly what I mean. This link shows the method and tool I describe in more detail as you obviously are not familiar with them.

http://www.mapro.skf.com/products/mec_tmft.htm

The supposed dust seal does have a sealing lip on the inside, check the link in the post I made in reply to Phils last comment, all the info is there under the heading Radial Shaft Seal. The supposed dust seal is an industry standard Radial lip seal, Bike Bandit even quote the size on the site, 32x62x7 thats the ID the OD and the depth. Get one off the shelf at your local bearing supplier, thats where I got the seals and bearings for both my wheels when I replaced them and all the needle roller bearings for the suspension, same make as the originals but 25% of the cost of OEM parts. Thats another tip for you.


I have been told in this thread that Oil seals should not be drifted into position and that they rely on the clamping effect of the cases. I have quoted the fitment of the seals behind the advancer and forks as examples and asked how they should be fitted given that the casings do not split around them. Applogies if I didnt make that clear as you have misinterpreted my comments. Fork seals are subject to axial (like a hydraulic ram seal hence the need for a retaing clip) while shaft seals are radial, two different designs of sealing faces but the fitting methods are the same. While we are on this subject when did I say that fork seals can be fitted while the tube is present? please point this out to me in my previous posts because I dont recall saying it or even suggesting it.....that really would show a lack of knowledge because as far as I am aware its paracticaly impossible, but thats another issue.


The comment that the seals "melt" into position after being cooked by the heat of the engine is a new one, again I find that very difficult, almost impossible to believe. I can believe that heat can make them difficult to remove but I wont accecpt that the heat forms part of the sealing process. I think the heat required to melt the Elstomer coating (not rubber) would cause damage to other engine parts long before it melted. Look again at the link and you will see the text mentions interference when fitting, nothing about heat. Here is a reminder.

 
http://www.acorn-ind.co.uk/products/proil.htm


I am aware that cases need to be sealed and how its done, despite never actually having split a motorcycle engine. I work with what I call similar equpiment regularly though. My idea of similar is a mechanical assembly and lets be honest thats all a engine and gearbox is....a collection of moving parts in an oiltight box. The principles and techniques applied to dismantle, diagnose, inspect and finaly reaseamble are all the same reagrdless of what the item is and there is nothing unique about motorcycle engines as far as I am concerned although I would have to refer to manuals to get torque figures for fastenings and the upper and lower wear limits and tolerances for certain parts subject to wear such as the piston and bore diameters and crank journals etc as I am sure you do when rebuilding an engine. Regarding case sealing compounds I would recomend this product instead of paying silly amounts for OEM stuff.



http://www.hylomar.co.uk/universalblue.htm



Your final comment is interesting because you admit it can be done with difficulty yet James insists it cant... "period" owing to this phantom lip in the casing. I said right at the start it could be done but it was difficult. Bascially all your saying is that YOU wouldnt do it my way or let anyone else do it my way on your bike despite the fact it CAN BE DONE if an individual chooses to go down that road. After all the backtracking, contradictory statements and half harted and poor attempts to prove it cant be done we have now gone full circle and the opinion is that yes....it can be done.

[dionysus]

Why would anyone want to remove a seal? They're so darned cute: http://www.eurekalert.org/multimedia/media/127.jpg

[Blueknyt]

Ill agree with that discription, however, most gearboxes ive seen and delt with arnt split on the shaft line, but rather have access plates, or one end mounts in a "Face Plate" (lacking a better term at the moment)  be it a harley trany, munci 4spd, borgwarner T5,  old saganaw 3, or even a 10speed in a Kenworth.  only split cases ive seen in daily use other then Bikes, is Lawn mower/cushman style trannies & PTO's.

the seals/shafts,and bearings are all laid in place and cases are gooped.  You know as well as i that while the coating on the seals isnt meant to be Heat locked, it does happen,  to add to this, the pressure from all the bolts torqueing the halves together clamps tighter on the  outside of the seal. while it can be removed its very difficult and chances of a novice hurting the shaft or Bore are very high.  then properly cleaning the bore is very difficult while still assembled and shaft still in the way.  while time consuming and even intimdating to a new wrench, dropping the engine and spliting the cases is not hard nor as frustrating as attempting to do such a chore with no prior expeirence while still mounted in the chassis.  

all the shift forks are in the upper half, all parts save the bottom Crank and CB shaft bearings sit in the upper case.   removal of the side covers, clutch basket, oil filter/pan,shifter shaft slides out, and 3 bolts holding the shifter spring retainer are all thats needed to pull the cases apart.    this will allow full access to those seals, and allow proper inspection of the output shaft and bearings, as well as crank,CB shaft and rod bearings. .  Other then being ham fisted and NOT using the proper torque wrenchs reassembly is just as time consuming but not hard.  i did this inside of 14 hours, could have been less but had to cut my own gaskets for side covers and oilpan (what a PIA)   its tedious hence expensive.  full Gasket kit is 60$.  

i do belive in short cuts or there must be an easyer way, but this just isnt one of them.  the risk of screwups in the sneekypete way is too much to chance having to do it all over again the proper way rather then doing it the proper way the first time.  Most good instructors will show you how the book says its to be done, then show you a short cut if they know of one. but they all push the Proper way first.  

the going by the book may take longer, but the potential for screwing something up is too great for a new wrench to chance that kind of shortcut.  all the engines and trannies, and reductions ive done, yeah ive cheated a few. in this situ however( no offense) i would not recomend it.
its more of a pain time wise then hard to do but completeable in a weekend for a novice.