Wet-Riding Technique

[weaselnoze]

In a car you would pull in the clutch, shift to neutral, let go of clutch, blip, pull in the clutch, down shift, let go of clutch but since there's only one neutral point in a bike it would be difficult to do so...

You don't have to double-clutch with synchros.  On my cars, I always just blipped with the clutch in while I was shifting.  Faster.

ditto.  no need for double clutching todays cars.  

i will add one thing that may have been covered already. but anywho,  when u rev match u dont get any engine braking.  so when im slowing down i wont blip the throttle/accelerator unless road conditions arent good.  the times i use rev matching, esp in my car, is when i need to drop to a lower gear for higher RPMs.  example, giong up a hill or around a curve.

[mjm]

when u rev match u dont get any engine braking. .

Wrong.  You rev-match THEN back off on the throttle and like magic have engine braking without tire chirping and causing the suspension distress.

[pandy]

when u rev match u dont get any engine braking. .

Wrong.  You rev-match THEN back off on the throttle and like magic have engine braking without tire chirping and causing the suspension distress.

Outstanding! We've found another thing to "discuss" along the lines of oil!!!!  :lol:

Seriously, thanks to all for this discussion. It's really helping me to understand   ...well..helping me to START to understand. Just when I think I'm getting pretty good at this moto thang, I learn something new, and I feel like a newbie again!     :lol:  :mrgreen:

[phire]

when u rev match u dont get any engine braking. .

Wrong.  You rev-match THEN back off on the throttle and like magic have engine braking without tire chirping and causing the suspension distress.

Tires shouldn't chirp unless a) they're old and crappy or b) you're downshifting multiple gears from a high speed.

At least that's been the case in my 1800 miles of GS experience

[Alphamazing]

I haven't had my tires chirp on me, but I have had the rear wheel hop on me. Now THAT is a frightening thing when you're going down a hill. Rev matching at higher revs is critical in order to keep your rear tire from jumping away from you like a frog on fire.

[RedShift]

The art of mastering a motorcycle seems to me based on Riding Smooth.  (Believe this is the title of Reg Pridmore's book.)  To do this you need to practice and train yourself to react in a measured way with all control inputs.

Haven't mastered it, but I'm on my way.  Like what I read here and agree with most of it re: match engine speed for the velocity and gear.  Practice is necessary, something I'm getting precious little of with snow on the ground.  :x

[Roadstergal]

Smooth.  Consistent.  Fast.  The first two naturally lead to the third.  Without the first two, you might feel like you're going fast, but you're not.

Ditto on the rev-match before engine braking.

[weaselnoze]

when u rev match u dont get any engine braking. .

Wrong.  You rev-match THEN back off on the throttle and like magic have engine braking without tire chirping and causing the suspension distress.

ok u get the same effect as if u just let off the throttle. but u dont get the braking that u would expierience when u downshift and ease out the clutch..

[Roadstergal]

You don't get the breaking (loose) of the tire that you get from dumping the clutch.    But although it feels like you're slowing more because it's more abupt, it's a three-stage procedure instead of a two-stage.

Rev-match:
-Downshift while rev-matching, let up on the throttle.

Don't rev-match:
-Downshift, rear tire and engine don't agree, rear tire spins engine up and likely slips.
-Let up on the throttle.


The whole point of engine braking is smoothness, anyhoo; if you want to stop quickly, brakes.

I've known guys who thought you were accelerating faster if you let the engine spin down with the clutch in before shifting, because the car jerked.  Jerky gives an illusion of speed, not the reality.

[phire]

Jerky gives an illusion of speed, not the reality.

Exactly.  

[pandy]

Don't rev-match:
-Downshift, rear tire and engine don't agree, rear tire spins engine up and likely slips.
-Let up on the throttle.

Yup, I do believe that this is what I've been doing, and my bf concurs....and it definitely feels (and probably looks, since my bf was very aware of it) very jerky.

I noticed it more on the GS, but I think I've been riding the SVS with kid gloves. The GS is definitely more forgiving of blunders, but gotta love FI!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a feeling that the ERC will be an educational experience for me...

So much to learn.....so little sun lately.    :mrgreen:

[weaselnoze]

i dotn usually disagree with u RG cause i think u know more about cars and physics than i do however this time i have to.  im nto talking about dumping the clutch.   lets pretend there are no brakes.  ur saying that when u rev match, you get the same amount of engine braking? as opposed to clutch in, shift and ease out on clutch.

[Badger]

i dotn usually disagree with u RG cause i think u know more about cars and physics than i do however this time i have to.  im nto talking about dumping the clutch.   lets pretend there are no brakes.  ur saying that when u rev match, you get the same amount of engine braking? as opposed to clutch in, shift and ease out on clutch.

I would have to say:  no.  If you dump the clutch and cause your rear wheel to lose traction, you're gonna get no braking benefit (unless you consider the fact that the tire came unstuck a "benefit").  Whether you dump the clutch or smoothly engage a lower gear, the engine is going to provide the same resistance (off throttle) against the spinning tire.  Even though dumping the clutch is going to cause the rear to cinch up suddenly, it's quickly going to come back up to engine speed (or come unstuck).

I also want to point out that no one (at least that I've read in this thread) is encouraging slowly easing out the clutch...it's about smoothly getting the lower gear engaged.  In fact, getting the engine matching the gear drive speed allows a much more rapid clutch engagement (maintaining smoothness), allowing you to get the maximum controlled benefit of the engine resistance in the lower gear.

Besides...trying to "maximize" engine braking is a false economy...the brakes are much better at it, and are specifically engineered for that purpose.  The purpose of getting into a lower gear is not to slow faster, it's to be ready to accellerate quicker once the braking is done.

The ultimate point is that smoothness is going to give you control over it all.

[GeeP]

On a motorcycle, smooooooothly let out the clutch.  Motorcycles have wet clutches just like automatic transmissions.  They're designed to be slipped.  Some kawasakis have "slipper clutches".  You can pop the clutch during a downshift.

In a car, either blip the throttle or double-clutch.  Cars have dry clutches, which generate a lot of heat and will warp the pressure plate, or set the clutch on fire in extreme cases.  (You'll have to park the car on a hill, rev to full throttle, and ease the clutch into the friction zone for a few minutes to set it alight.)

I find myself double-clutching my up and downshifts in my cars all the time.  Habit I guess.   :mrgreen:

[NightRyder]

NightRyder talks in riddles..

Yeah.. It made sense to me, and that's all that counts. :lol:

I find myself double-clutching my up and downshifts in my cars all the time.  Habit I guess.   :mrgreen:

Yeah, me too. Makes me feel like I'm better then thoes that just force it.. or something like that.

[pandy]

NightRyder talks in riddles..

Yeah.. It made sense to me, and that's all that counts. :lol:

:lol:    :lol:

[weaselnoze]

i dotn usually disagree with u RG cause i think u know more about cars and physics than i do however this time i have to.  im nto talking about dumping the clutch.   lets pretend there are no brakes.  ur saying that when u rev match, you get the same amount of engine braking? as opposed to clutch in, shift and ease out on clutch.

I would have to say:  no.  If you dump the clutch and cause your rear wheel to lose traction, you're gonna get no braking benefit (unless you consider the fact that the tire came unstuck a "benefit").  Whether you dump the clutch or smoothly engage a lower gear, the engine is going to provide the same resistance (off throttle) against the spinning tire.  Even though dumping the clutch is going to cause the rear to cinch up suddenly, it's quickly going to come back up to engine speed (or come unstuck).

I also want to point out that no one (at least that I've read in this thread) is encouraging slowly easing out the clutch...it's about smoothly getting the lower gear engaged.  In fact, getting the engine matching the gear drive speed allows a much more rapid clutch engagement (maintaining smoothness), allowing you to get the maximum controlled benefit of the engine resistance in the lower gear.
.

did u even read my post?  i never even mentioned dumping the clutch. all i've been saying is that easing the clutch out is better than revmatching for engine braking.

[Badger]

did u even read my post?  i never even mentioned dumping the clutch.

I did...reading back it looks like I misread this section, where you mention dumping the clutch:

im nto talking about dumping the clutch.

I must have misinterpreted "nto".  

Anyway...your post makes more sense with that clarification.  I'm still not sure I agree...

[weaselnoze]

lol ok. my pselling aint the great. ist

[RVertigo]

I prefer to dump the clutch, lock the rear brake, and slide it around corners...  Way more fun.