LED blinkers & tail lamp

[arkanoid]

Last week I bought a brand new K6 GS500 and I appreciate it forme most but the blinkers and the tail lamp are not satisfiyng me at all....so, I love LED lamps such the tail lamp of SV and those awesome litlle orange-gray blinkers. I read some about in these pages, but I had some difficult to understand if the mods are custom works made from you ore if there are some aftermarket component available in some online store (I live in Italy and this bike is not very common, so aftermarket is really poor, only exhaust mods...).

I need some suggestion also for the prices, now the excange ratio for me is a little good, but I wonder the air mail would be quite expensive...

[blue05twin]

try this website www.clearalternatives.com they will have the led's for the GS500's for the rear.   As for the front just pick something that you like.

[My Name Is Dave]

Do some searching around the site, there has been a lot of talk about LEDs. Ok, I'm an accountant, so forgive me if I screw this up, but I'll try to explain a problem that occurs with them.

LEDs require less current to blink than regular bulbs. So with out system, the flasher opens and closes much faster, making the blinkers blink faster. For me this was a problem, because they were hardly even lighting up because of how fast they were flashing. I put in a new flasher relay, which didn't seem to help. Soon after, I had a dead battery. I don't know what happened, but I know that things were fine before I put in the LEDs. I took them out and went back to regular bulbs, which have been working fine.

So feel free to experiment, but I just wanted to detail the problems I encountered with front LED blinkers.

Dave

[Blueknyt]

wiring in a resister should clear that problem up. as to the value, i couldnt say,   STARWALT?

[arkanoid]

thanks.

Certainly if you use LEDs you cannot link them directly to the relais as well as a bulb, because of their very little resistance compared to traditional lamps.
As blueknit said, a resistor need to be applied. For example, to obtain the same blinking frequency of a 10W lamp, you need a current of about 1A (12V). Comparing lightning power of LEDs and bulbs results in a minor current nedeed for the LED solution. I suppose that if a resister of 1 ohm is connected, you can solve the problem. Remember also that LEDs need voltage different than 12V to work properly, so an audit of real voltage needed by the LED (or LEDs) chosen for your lamps is certain. You have to use a correct resister in order to have the LEDs work properly with the right voltage and the ralais work properly as well with the correct current. If you experience that the right resister for the led causes wrong current compared with the original one, maybe you will be forced to change your relais too.

Sorry if I misunderstand something or if I wrote something confused, maybe I need to improve my english some time!

[starwalt]

wiring in a resister should clear that problem up. as to the value, i couldnt say,   STARWALT?

This is one of the topics that keeps coming back. It is another item that needs to be in a FAQ with some how-to and theory to help those troubleshooting a, usually self-induced, problem.

Changing the turn signals (blinkers) to LED probably requires modifying the dash indicator lamp circuit. Why? The dash indicator lamp is the path for the ground (earth) of the used lamps via the un-used lamps.  Confused?


If you can read schematics, the above pic tells the entire story. Stay with me a bit and read on. Then it may become clear why this is not a fast swap.

Here's the order of operation:
Assumptions - The bike is running and powered up & you decide to turn LEFT.

1) The turn signal switch (TSS) connects the light blue wire to the black wire. This applies power to the Left Front, Left Rear, and Indicator lamps. The Left Front and Rear lamps have their own ground (earth) to make them get HOT and light up. The Indicator lamp ground (earth) is made via the RIGHT front and rear lamps! You are actually warming up the Right Front and Rear lamps to light up the Indicator lamp!

2) The turn signal relay (TSR) operates and OPENS the +12V feeding the LEFT circuit. The lamps go COLD and turn off.

3) The TSR closes and the cycle continues until YOU turn off the TSS permanently opening the circuit.

4) The operation of the RIGHT side is identical in theory, but with the other components. The Left signal lamps become the ground path for the indicator lamp.

As accurately mentioned above, LEDs use far, far LESS current to illuminate than our filament lamps. A filament lamp uses AMPS. An LED uses MILLIAMPS.

This poses two problems.
1 - The TSR is designed to operate with HIGH current (AMPS). The lower requirements of the LEDs can/could cause the fast blink "feature" or no blink at all.
2 - Another possibility is all four indicators coming on at once! This has been reported here also and is evident when you look at the schematic. All 5 lamps are passing some current when blinking. 3 have enough current to light up. The other two providing ground (earth) do not.

Adding a resistor in series or parallel will not increase the current the LED uses, it will decrease the current if in series or shunt the current in parallel. Others have used resistors in a shunt path to force extra current around the LED and trick the TSR into seeing the same load. Others have removed the indicator lamp completely to eliminate the "5 LED flash" that can happen. Any resistor will have to be a very low value to draw enough current to fool the TSR. As I hope you can see, it is not a plug-and-blink operation.

Well, at least I can see it is not a simple thing. 

How would I do this? I would design a special LED lamp that draws the same current as a filament lamp. This would require a shunt resistor path and a path for the LED inside the device (LED-lamp hybrid).

This is counter-intuitive for selecting an LED in the first place - lower current demand!

Another option is modifying the stock GS wiring to use a different TSR and a bi-directional LED for the TS indicator. The stock lamps are cheap, they work, and frankly I don't mind them. The modifications needed to make up for the basic design are a lot of trouble for the weekend wrencher (or the black tape crowd  ).

LEDs are an attractive option IF designed for in the first place, i.e. SV650, etc. If adapted to the GS, they are forced to work in a circuit not designed for them.

[blue05twin]

Just a FYI if you buy the kit from clear alternatives you get the led bulbs 2 resistors and all the little pices to make install it and work right.

[pandy]

This is one of the topics that keeps coming back. It is another item that needs to be in a FAQ with some how-to and theory to help those troubleshooting a, usually self-induced, problem.

You're right! It's now started in the FAQ section. Feel free to msg me additional links or good sources to add there! 

[My Name Is Dave]

Yeah, that's all over my head, but it is a great write-up. Nice work!

As for the original poster's comment about possibly learning better English, your English is a lot better than that spoken by many Americans I know, so don't worry. On top of that, it looks like you are pretty knowledgable about electronics, so good luck on the project!

Dave

[Mandres]

Excellent explanation Starwalt, thanks for taking the time.

-M

[arkanoid]

Yeah, that's all over my head, but it is a great write-up. Nice work!

As for the original poster's comment about possibly learning better English, your English is a lot better than that spoken by many Americans I know, so don't worry. On top of that, it looks like you are pretty knowledgable about electronics, so good luck on the project!

Dave

Thanks! I appreciate very much your suggestions.

I'm a mechanical engineer, I don't know very much about electronics but I'm a lot interested in it, soma here and some there i read a bit about that, I finally should try to do the work, maybe not now (missing time!!) but as soon as I can I surely do, I whish whit some help by a friend which is very acknowledged about mechanical and electrical works on Vespa......yes it's not exactly the same thing, but 2 wheels, 2 brakes, in the end it's not much different!

[RedShift]

...Changing the turn signals (blinkers) to LED probably requires modifying the dash indicator lamp circuit. Why? The dash indicator lamp is the path for the ground (earth) of the used lamps via the un-used lamps.  Confused?


If you can read schematics, the above pic tells the entire story. Stay with me a bit and read on. Then it may become clear why this is not a fast swap. ...

Excellent write-up, StarWalt.  I followed your explanation all the way through, and it answered a question or two about what I wanted to know about if an LED would work at the dash indicator bulb position.  I figure I can replace the stock incandescent so long as the bulb isn't polar.  No wonder people want you to pipe on on electrical questions.    

It's obvious to me now that LED's are ill suited to being used in a stock GS500's turn signal circuit, but there's still the tail lights.  Using an 1157-replacement WHITE LED bulb should work well.  Anybody done it?

[kyleGS500]

I look at clear alternatives and they don't have anything for an 01. Would the tail lights for a 89-00 work?


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[Twisted]

I look at clear alternatives and they don't have anything for an 01. Would the tail lights for a 89-00 work?


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No you need the newer lights. Try this site - http://www.lights4all.com/SUZUKI/LED-TAILLIGHTS/LED-TAILLIGHT-SUZUKI-GS-500-01-07::1395.html

[adidasguy]

Going all LED is easy. The modification for the turn signal indicator, which relied on current going both ways, can be solved with 2 diodes.
Here's the circuit modification and a photo of it before I put on the shrink tubing and electrical tape. Anyone can do it with simple soldering iron and a couple cheap diodes, like 1n4001's. For the blinker relay, you need one that does not sense a burnt out bulb. They blink faster if not enough load - thinking a bulb is out. Get one specifically for LED circuits.

LED is easy for the turn indicator. If you can get a non-polarized one, just plug it in. Otherwise here's how the 2 diodes look.
(Technically it is half wave rectification, not full wave)


Wiring diagram:

[jpaytoncfd]

Maybe this is answered Somewhere else but an electronic flasher would solve all your problems.  Adding registers add usage.  Making the leds partially pointless.  The thermal flashers use the high current of a bulb to bend a metal tab. Thus requiring a spific load. Electronic flasher uses a timer circuit so it flashes the same speed no matter what the load.

[jestercinti]

One thing I will add to this is to buy quality LEDs from SuperbrightLEDs.com or equivalent.  Cheap ones will burn out faster than incandescent lamps.  Found this out with some T10 bulbs. 

[adidasguy]

Just because a flasher is electronic does not mean it will work. all newer ones on GS500's are electronic. They sense a burnt out bulb and flash faster. I have seen it myself: loose connection to right front on Suzi and it flashes faster. Have to re-check that connection as it is intermittent.

You need a flasher rated for LED use.

[Beemersworld]

So is there anything wrong with not putting a resistor thing on there and having the fast blink?  is it just a cosmetic thing or can it damage my bike?   The lights I bought didnt have it  and the bike shop was closed so right now They "fast blink"  but after riding with them like that I think I prefer it but if it could cause problems I obviously want to resolve the issue ASAP!
Thanks

[adidasguy]

You are fine for now.
When you have a chance, pick up a flasher rated for LED use.

Others here can probably give you brands and part numbers for that.

The bike has more than enough electricity so resistors to increase the load would also work. You probably went LED for cosmetic  purposes, longevity and the status of saying you are "LED", and probably never considered power usage. They could use 10x the power and still not be an issue because stock bulbs use so little power anyway and are on only intermittently.