Removing the cylinder head

[IL_Rider]

I did a few searches and couldnt find the answer to this, though i am sure someone must have asked before .  Can I remove the Cylinder head with the engine in the bike?  The Clymer manual says the cylinder head cover can be removed with the engine in the bike, but is there enough clearance to get the actual head off?  It looks like it would be tight.  If not, how much of a PITA is it to get the engine out of the frame?

Cheers

[JamesG]

Nope. Dispite what the Clymers manual says, its impossible to get the head off in the frame unless you did something silly like remove the cylinder studs first.

Removing the engine is the easy part. Getting it back in is a serious pain but it gets easier once you learn to do it it. The first time or two will leave you cursing it and throwing tools.  It has to go in diagonally and tilted back and then when lined up front to back, insert the lower rear engine bolt. Then rotate it down onto the front mounting points. It helps to remove the left side (generator) engine cover.

[D-Day]

Nope. Dispite what the Clymers manual says, its impossible to get the head off in the frame unless you did something silly like remove the cylinder studs first.

Removing the engine is the easy part. Getting it back in is a serious pain but it gets easier once you learn to do it it. The first time or two will leave you cursing it and throwing tools.  It has to go in diagonally and tilted back and then when lined up front to back, insert the lower rear engine bolt. Then rotate it down onto the front mounting points. It helps to remove the left side (generator) engine cover.

James,

Hate to dissagree with you, but I have taken the cyclinder head off of the engine while the motor was in the frame.  Not even a problem. 

As to taking the engine out (I have done this 5 times now)  I have found that by putting a automotive jack (the kind with the four wheels) under the motor, I can rotate the motor 90 degrees once I clear the motor mount tabs on the frame, drop it down and pull it out.  It goes in the same way, only in reverse order. The motor is almost level the entire time.  I have got it down to a couple of minutes out, and under 5 minutes back in.(After all the ancilliary stuff is removed.)

Having said all that, the first time I did it, I was cussing up a storm.  It is kind of like a puzzle, easy once you solve it.

Did a motor at a track day and only lost one session, just over 90 minutes start to finish.

[IL_Rider]

thanks for the help guys.  Just to report back - we managed to get the head off by taking out the front engine bolts and one at the top rear an the loosening the bottom rear so the engine could pivot a little.  It only moved about 1/4" before hitting the frame, but that was just enough clearance to get the head off with the engine still in the frame.  We used a trolley jack under the engine to support it while pivoting it.  Indeed I managed to bend a valve pretty good last time i was at the track.  Stupid GP shift pattern, gumble grumble...

[JamesG]

Ah, I'd never thought of "half-removing" the engine!
But then, usually if I need to take the head off, I'm completely striping down the motor.

I'll file that away for if I ever need to do an emergency top end job though! 

[runsilent]

I pulled the head on my 02 GS500 without removing the engine, lowering the engine, or removing the cylinder studs.  It will come off up between the frame members with a little careful working it out.  Will shear off the electrical wire harness clamp on the right inner frame member if not moved out of the way.

[sledge]

Engine components removable with engine in place:
Exhaust pipes
Oil filter
Sump
Carbs
Throttle and choke cables
Cam chain tensioner
Cylinder head cover
Camshafts
Cylinder head
Cylinders
Pistons
Starter motor

I cant verify any of this personaly but it is quoted in the Suzuki service manual (section 3-3)

[JamesG]

A few years ago this came up and someone said it wasn't possible to get the head off in the frame, and I've accepted that til now.

Learn something new every day...

[Mandres]

yes, the head will come off with the engine in the frame.  I just did it a few days ago.  It's a tight fit, and having an assistant helps a lot.  The clip-in connector holding the wiring to the frame needs to be removed, and the spark plug wires need to be moved well out of the way. 

[KYGS500E]

I have removed my head 3x... never lowered anything... never took the motor out... it just takes some shaking, wiggling, cable moving and patience... not hard though.... matter of fact... I'd call it easy

[D-Day]

I have removed my head 3x... never lowered anything... never took the motor out... it just takes some shaking, wiggling, cable moving and patience... not hard though.... matter of fact... I'd call it easy

see..........I am not crazy.

[facepants]

When removing the head, where are the valves in relation to this?

Will the valves be moved at all when you remove the head or are they unaffected?

I'm about to get in and try to rebuild mine (first time working on anything).  The haynes manual doesnt specify.

Thanks

[WildBlue]

The head comes out with the valves attached to it.

[Egaeus]

yes, the head will come off with the engine in the frame.  I just did it a few days ago.  It's a tight fit, and having an assistant helps a lot.  The clip-in connector holding the wiring to the frame needs to be removed, and the spark plug wires need to be moved well out of the way. 

Oh good lord now what's wrong?

[Trwhouse]

Hi facepants et al,
I have to say, anyone who is thinking about removing the cylinder head but isn't aware that the valves are part of the head is probably jumping in WAY over their own head (as in experience and aptitude, not as in cylinder head).
I know we all have to learn somewhere, but are you sure you are ready for this step?
Removing the cylinder head is very doable while the engine is in the fram, but it takes a special technique to try to remove the head without disturbing the cylinders and the cylinder base gasket. If you break that gasket seal, you should remove the cylinders and replace the base gasket, which then means you should hone the cylinders and replace the piston rings.
If all of this scares you, it should. You need to have a good repair manual and a great selection of the proper tools to dig this deeply into your engine.
I'm not trying to say don't do it, but please know what you are getting into.
I'm not sure someone who is unfamilar with valves being in the cylinder head on a four-stroke engine is ready.
Good luck whatever you decide, and we will be here to assist you.
Best wishes,
Todd

[facepants]

Hi facepants et al,
I have to say, anyone who is thinking about removing the cylinder head but isn't aware that the valves are part of the head is probably jumping in WAY over their own head (as in experience and aptitude, not as in cylinder head).
I know we all have to learn somewhere, but are you sure you are ready for this step?
Removing the cylinder head is very doable while the engine is in the fram, but it takes a special technique to try to remove the head without disturbing the cylinders and the cylinder base gasket. If you break that gasket seal, you should remove the cylinders and replace the base gasket, which then means you should hone the cylinders and replace the piston rings.
If all of this scares you, it should. You need to have a good repair manual and a great selection of the proper tools to dig this deeply into your engine.
I'm not trying to say don't do it, but please know what you are getting into.
I'm not sure someone who is unfamilar with valves being in the cylinder head on a four-stroke engine is ready.
Good luck whatever you decide, and we will be here to assist you.
Best wishes,
Todd

None of it scares me.  What scares me is getting in there and finding out that I need a new engine and not just a top end rebuild. I've been through the haynes manual several times and over a lot of posts here.  I assume the valves would be one of the more obvious points in a head removal, which is probably why it wasn't clear in the haynes manual.  I figured they were around there somewhere, I was just hoping that they wouldn't just slide out and land on the ground while i was removing the head.  I just don't want to leave any stone unturned.

I'm slowly gathering all the proper tools and reading up on the tips and techniques here.  I have faith in myself and faith in the help from the experts on this board.  I'm certainly not going into this blindly. 
I'm sure that as soon as I actually see everything, it will make a lot more sense.  Pictures from one badly chosen angle aren't very helpful.

Thanks for the support.

[Trwhouse]

Hi again facepants,
So tell us again why you are even getting ready to pull the cylinder head off the engine?
What are you trying to fix here?
There's nothing in your post about the problem you are having with the bike.
Let's talk about that before you take anything apart.
Best wishes,
Todd

[facepants]

I have discussed my problem in a different thread.  You can check it out here:

http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=31890.0

Might be better to move the discussion over there instead of tearing up this thread.

[scratch]

Well, I'm glad I just read this just before my internet at home went out, yesterday!  I could not get my head off, and I just needed a 1/4 of an inch more clearance to get the head off between the studs and the frame.  I think every bike is a little different, as has been my experience.

I had removed the two upper engine bolts, front and back, and the rear bolt (so it would rotate lower and back) and loosened the fourth, but the engine didn't even budge when I lowered the jack.  I really don't want to hit the last bolt with Liquid Wrench.

Any suggestions?

[WildBlue]

I had removed the two upper engine bolts, front and back, and the rear bolt (so it would rotate lower and back) and loosened the fourth, but the engine didn't even budge when I lowered the jack.  I really don't want to hit the last bolt with Liquid Wrench.

Any suggestions?

I found that the clearance between the engine and the frame (and subframe) attachment points is actually pretty tight.  The frame or subframe might just be preventing the engine from rotating.  Maybe try tapping the engine from the top with a rubber mallet to loosen it up.  Also it might be easier to rotate the front down because there are fewer obstructions there I think.

Why are you taking your engine apart???  That oil leak...?

Oh, one other thing to keep in mind is that the self-locking nuts that attach the engine to the frame are one-use only, since the locking part of them actually deforms when you tighten it.  Probably best to replace the ones that you've actually removed, they're only like $0.20 a piece.