Counter Steering...

[Alphamazing]

I'm sorry to be harsh.  Normally I would ignore the comment, but with newbies in the forum it's too dangerous to be giving out information like this.

Your ability to turn comes *directly* from your steering input on the handle bars.

I would also ignore any advice to "just forget about it and do what comes naturally."  Much of motorcycling is counterintuitive and you jeopardize your safety by making the decision to *not* learn about the mechanics involved.  Learn everything you can!

Ummm, so yeah, when I'm going around a corner leaning into it with my hands off the bars, I'm making steering inputs, thus causing me to turn. Right? I mean, directly from the steering input on the handlebars, right? So that means I can't turn without my hands on the bars.

I DEFY PHYSICS ON A REGULAR BASIS! SWEET!

Shifting your body weights the pegs and drops the center of mass, the change in the direction of the center of mass turns you.

If you want, I'll make a freakin' video to prove my point.

[coll0412]

Yeah Alpha is right that you can "steer" your bike by leaning but really you can not hold a turn, it will wander a little to the left or right but you would never be able to take a turn by leaning only. In fact the concept is of counter stearing is only for the intial entry of a turn. You push the right to go right, because you actually turn the wheel to the left(in this case) for a breif instance causing the bike to fall to the right via centirufical(sp?)l force. Once into the turn and the bike is leaning then body postion is important for handling.

They talk abou it in this video, if you have like 45min watch it. (the sound is off at the end by a little bit but still good)

http://www.mnsportbikeriders.com/stuff/Vids/Speed_on_Two_Wheels.wmv

[Dwn4whadever]

I pull to turn sometimes...  But, it's when I'm riding with one hand on the bars and the other on my hip...  Like a superhero.

[GeeP]

Pulling on the bars will also destabilize your body on the bike.  If you have to apply a lot of force to the bars, such as when evading a car, pulling on the bars will cause you to come up off the seat.  Pushing on the bars transfers the force directly through your body to the seat, rather than using your weight to resist the force you're applying.

I think having the "high" side arm relaxed is also a valid point.  Mixing support with control is not a good idea!

Just palm the bars, open-handed, keep all four fingers over the clutch and brake levers.

There you have it!  That forces you to get rid of your death grip too!     Let the bars wiggle a little in your hands, that's the motorcycle adjusting it's steer angle to remain upright.  (This is why you don't ride with your elbows locked.)  Do the chicken.   

Those of you who think that adjustment of the CG will initiate a turn need to go out right now and get copies of "Proficient Motorcycling" and "Sport Riding Techniques".   

CG location about the lateral axis of the motorcycle has very little to do with turn initiation and lots to do with maximum corner speed.  While it may help to initiate a turn by de-stabilizing the motorcycle, at track speeds it will have no influence on the direction of the bike.

[Larry]

My advice is to practice the skills that will allow you to ride any bike.  Shifting body weight to corner on a light bike like the GS works to a point.  It does not work well on a heavier bike.  I can not corner my R1150RT (625 lbs) without counter steering inputs.  Push counter steering works for both a light bike or a heavy bike and is a good skill to master.

[squelch]

Great discussion!  Back in the day I could navigate sufficently well on my bicycle without touching the handlebars, but only when at speed.  The trick, I think, is that when "at speed" we're actually riding a couple pretty large gyroscopes.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/gyroscope.htm

So leaning causes the bike to "steer" around the curve, with the bars used for fine tuning the angle...  am I  ?

What I'm trying to figure out is why things get a little more stable under slight acceleration.

[galahs]

This whole countersteering thing is utter nonsense.  People "trying" to do it are typically the ones who wash out or run into parked cars while practicing at walmart.  You know the basics behind the way a bike steers...just use them.

Simply follow the bars along the lean and keep your strength to the inside.

I disagree completely.

For newbies, until you realise this theory (some pick it up without knowing they are doing it) it can make a world of difference. Also, if your in the wet, on a sweeper bend, and a car over runs the line, the concept of countersteering could be all you have between making it and ka-bang!

[ukchickenlover]

I think you guys have misunderstood what ''makenzie71'' was saying. I think what he meant was when you lean off the bike you naturaly push into the inside handle bar so are counter steering.

[Alphamazing]

Yeah Alpha is right that you can "steer" your bike by leaning but really you can not hold a turn, it will wander a little to the left or right but you would never be able to take a turn by leaning only. In fact the concept is of counter stearing is only for the intial entry of a turn. You push the right to go right, because you actually turn the wheel to the left(in this case) for a breif instance causing the bike to fall to the right via centirufical(sp?)l force. Once into the turn and the bike is leaning then body postion is important for handling.

They talk abou it in this video, if you have like 45min watch it. (the sound is off at the end by a little bit but still good)

http://www.mnsportbikeriders.com/stuff/Vids/Speed_on_Two_Wheels.wmv

Eh, I do this one turn pretty regularly as it's on the way back to my house. I am getting used to riding through it with no hands and can hold the line fairly well with only minor adjustments. It's a downhill left hander.

Fun fact: this is the same corner I totaled my '92 on, but coming from the opposite direction.

[Egaeus]

Don't forget what happens to n00bs who think that you turn solely by leaning. 

Video: http://people.tamu.edu/~redaggie03/Sv650%20Portal/Videos%20Page/BikeWreck.wmv

Old Thread: http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=25000.0

[Chuck]

Alpha, I will take you up on your video.  I'm expecting a very slow, broad turn which would be a really bad idea if anything interesting were happening on the road.  I too have made direction changes using body weight, and I'm convinced that it is not an effective way to turn.  If I believed body steering was the primary steering mechanism I would probably be dead.  If you suggest to a newbie that body leaning is more important than counter steering input you are putting them in danger too.

The statement was made (or at least interpreted by me) that leaning is the primary factor, steering input is secondary.  This is wrong, even if that's not what the original poster intended to communicate.  If I misunderstood it that way, there's a possibility that someone else misunderstood it that way, and it could put that person in grave danger.

That's all.

I'm not arguing physics, and I know it's possible.  It's just not safe to rely on it, because it's not effective.  If it were, you wouldn't be talking about the one turn that you've memorized and practiced a thousand times to turn using body weight.  I don't have to talk about the tens of thousands of turns I've made with two hands on the bars countersteering my way through them.

My point is that you must learn about countersteering in order to safely operate a motorcycle.  Anyone who says otherwise is preaching death.

[Alphamazing]

Alpha, I will take you up on your video.  I'm expecting a very slow, broad turn which would be a really bad idea if anything interesting were happening on the road.  I too have made direction changes using body weight, and I'm convinced that it is not an effective way to turn.

It is a very broad turn when taken at a modest speed. I usually take it around 35mph or so (posted is 20mph), the road is also covered in bumps, see here:


Sure it's not very effective, but without any input on the bars it's still possible.

[Chuck]

Sure it's not very effective, but without any input on the bars it's still possible.

Then I don't think we have any disagreement.

[ECB]

Anyone else watch that 45min vid?  About 16:55 into it there is a guy at the CLASS school on a GS500  .  That pretty cool.

[BaoQingTian]

Yeah Alpha is right that you can "steer" your bike by leaning but really you can not hold a turn, it will wander a little to the left or right but you would never be able to take a turn by leaning only. In fact the concept is of counter stearing is only for the intial entry of a turn. You push the right to go right, because you actually turn the wheel to the left(in this case) for a breif instance causing the bike to fall to the right via centirufical(sp?)l force. Once into the turn and the bike is leaning then body postion is important for handling.

They talk abou it in this video, if you have like 45min watch it. (the sound is off at the end by a little bit but still good)

http://www.mnsportbikeriders.com/stuff/Vids/Speed_on_Two_Wheels.wmv

Actually, isn't it partly the centrifugal force and gyroscopic effects of the wheels that keep the bike upright?  When you 'push right' even when the bike is not moving, it leans right (and would eventually fall over).  From my understanding of the physics behind the principle, the push to the right turns the wheel, causing the bike's center of gravity to change away from the perpendicular.  Gravity makes the bike continue to fall.  However, when the bike is moving at sufficient speed, then the gyroscopic and contrifugal forces overcome gravity to keep from completing the fall.  This is why countersteering doesn't work at very low speeds (~ < 5MPH)-the gyroscopic and centrifugal forces are insufficent to overcome gravity.

[John Bates]

................................
Actually, isn't it partly the centrifugal force and gyroscopic effects of the wheels that keep the bike upright?  When you 'push right' even when the bike is not moving, it leans right (and would eventually fall over).  From my understanding of the physics behind the principle, the push to the right turns the wheel, causing the bike's center of gravity to change away from the perpendicular.  Gravity makes the bike continue to fall.  However, when the bike is moving at sufficient speed, then the gyroscopic and contrifugal forces overcome gravity to keep from completing the fall.  This is why countersteering doesn't work at very low speeds (~ < 5MPH)-the gyroscopic and centrifugal forces are insufficent to overcome gravity.

I think BaoQingTian has hit the nail on the head.

I can't visualize the gyro effects but it makes sense that to maintain balance in a constant radius turn the centrifugal force of the turn (aimed just a little on the high side of the tire track) must equal the downward force of gravity (aimed to the low side of the tire track). Otherwise, plop, you fall over.

If the road's turn radius becomes smaller then to keep from drifting across the centerline or off the side of the road, the bikes's turn radius must get smaller. In other words the bike must lean more to follow the road. To do this requires less centrifugal force, you can't change the force of gravity. A momentary larger turn radius seems to be the quickest way to accomplish this. A bit of pressure on the down side bar, aka counter steering, does the job nicely.  The bike leans more, the centrifugal force increases accordingly and your in balance on a tighter turn radius.

In my mind, stability in a turn depends on the balancing of these forces.  Since you can't change the force of gravity, the skill of riding the curves is in managing the centrifugal force mainly by counter steering.

Gyro forces probably come into play and complicate things a bit.  Maybe someone can add these forces into the equation so they all make sense?

[Wrecent_Wryder]

78b

[John Bates]

........................................

I strongly suspect that cetrifugal force is the reason the bars can put forth so much resistance at speed, but apparently it isn't essential to balance.

Are you talking about centrifugal force due to the spinning wheels or due to the bike's path on a curve?

In my previous response I am referring to that due to the bike's curved path.

[galahs]

In my previous response I am referring to that due to the bike's curved path.

Your spot on