Starter problem?

[Jwalt]

Hello all,
I have a 89 gs 500; it was working great until I tried starting the bike to go home after work - on the first three tries to start the bike it just whinied but the engine didn't turn over. It started on the fourth try.  But now this morning it just whines agains and no engine turning over.   I charged the battery and pulled starter and it was turning over okay when I connectioned it to 12 volts.  Any ideas out what I should check next?  Starter clutch?

[scratch]

Welcome!

You stated you pulled the starter, right?  The starter gear engagement solenoid may be burned out; or, I don't know if it would need cleaning (like the brushes) or lubing since it's on a shaft.

Maybe someone with a little more electrical experience can help you.  Bump.

[starwalt]

Mayhaps it could be the starter clutch? If it doesn't grab the crankshaft and starter crank gear, you would get this type of symptom. There are three springs in the clutch. To read about the clutch operation see my FAQ on the subject CLICK HERE

If this is the problem, it is an ugly one. The starter clutch is behind the magnet rotor all located under the left side engine cover.

This is an ugly job -- but it can be done if you have the tools, time and space.

I've got a bad feeling about this Obi Wan.

[Jwalt]

Thanks for the reply,  Okay I put engine cover, first off I notice that the start gear has lots of slop/lash in it, is this good?, the bolt holding the magnet rotor don't have much torque on it, but the three springs seemed to be pushing the rollers out freely. Should there be shims taking the lash out of the starter gear on the shaft?, I don't see any shims on the shaft

[sledge]

Given the age of your bike I would agree with Starwalt and suspect the starter clutch. The springs could have gone weak or be partialy siezed, or the rollers may have developed flats. The only way to be sure is to dismantle, inspect it and replace it if required Its quite involved and I would reccomend you get a shop manual if you decide to do it yourself.  Another possibility, do you know what sort of oil is in there? If it is oil intended for use in a car it could be contributing to the problem. Car oil, even if it the same grade as the rquired bike oil has additives and friction modifiers added to it to prolong the life of the cat`-converter.  Not a problem for cars with dry clutches, but if its used in bikes with wet clutches and Sprag type starter clutches such as the GS this type of oil can lead to clutch slip and problems such as the one you describe. Certain BMW bikes are prone to the same problem and the link explains how their owners address the problem.
http://www.ibmwr.org/ktech/sprag-clutch.shtml

[starwalt]

Thanks for the reply,  Okay I put engine cover, first off I notice that the start gear has lots of slop/lash in it, is this good?,....shims?

No. The gear train from the output of the starter motor shaft, to the idler, to the starter gear (the large one with hole in it), should be fairly tight. No real backlash should exist, no bind either. There is no adjustment in the gear train -- no shims.

the bolt holding the magnet rotor don't have much torque on it, but the three springs seemed to be pushing the rollers out freely.

I am not certain which bolts you are referring to. The clutch proper has three allen (hex key) bolts to fasten it to the magnet rotor. They should be very tight. The service manuals recommend an impact tool for installation. Make sure that the gear train is aligned when the entire assembly is together. The faces of the gears should fall in the same plane.

Another important point is the shaft for the idler gear -- between the starter motor shaft and the starter gear -- is also a pin for the LH cover. When reinstalling the cover, the rotor magnets will want to pull the cover to them. You may have to go at it more than once to ensure everything lines up.

Sledge makes a good point with the oil type. I also think you could rotate the rollers -- "shaft dogs" in my parlance -- 180 degrees so that the other side of the roller contacts the crankshaft. That would eliminate the flat spot possibility.

You can now consider yourself a GS Wrench and in great company such as Srinath, dgyver, and a host of other noteworthy wrenches (wrenchers, wrenchi ??). 

[Jwalt]

Just finished putting the bike back together with new oil, hit the starter ...and perfect, it fired right up.   I test rode it around the neighborhood. Next, finished putting starter cover and clutch adjustment cover back on and I notice that I was able to start bike in gear with clutch pulled -- this is something I wasn't able to do before.  My thinking was the only thing I noticed was the bolt holding the genator rotor, starter clutch and gear wasn't tight, and being taper shaft made stater clutch slip.       


Spoke to soon,  Second test ride ,  after stopping it restarted twice okay but then I tried to put it in gear the clutch didn't seem to work with the engine running because when I went to put it in gear it ground in and lurch forward and died.  The clutch - acts okay not running and in gear I lever pull the llever it releases okay.  Starter will spin now only with clutch lever pulled and in neutral but engine now back to not turning over.  Back to square one again.

[starwalt]

Uuggggh. Sorry to hear of the troubles. The bold that holds the rotor/clutch assembly on the crankshaft must be torqued, but the normal operation spin makes sure it cannot just unscrew itself.

Do you have any of the service manuals -- Clymer, Haynes, Suzuki??

They detail this area of wrenching and would probably help greatly -- unless you've been doing this for 20 years.

[John Bates]

Welcome Jwalt.

I don't know how much experience you have with bikes so please excuse my comments if you are already aware of them.

It seems to me that, though not directly related to your clutch problems, these could be confusion factors for you.

........................... I was able to start bike in gear with clutch pulled -- this is something I wasn't able to do before.

If the kickstand is up, this is normal.

................... I tried to put it in gear the clutch didn't seem to work with the engine running because when I went to put it in gear it ground in and lurch forward and died. 

If the engine idle rpm is too high this can happen.

....................Starter will spin now only with clutch lever pulled and in neutral .....................

If the kickstand is down, this is normal.

[Jwalt]

Thanks for the info John.  Not,  new to bikes just a 4 stroker and street bike.  First bike without kick starter and with turn signals.