New Answering Your Questions on Islam Thread

[Jake D]

And he tried to answer your question. 

[ajgs500]

And he tried to answer your question. 

Where?  Show me, I dont see an answer anywhere to my questions.

[pandy]

Okay heres the answer to the women and Islam Question 

Every culture has its differences and the key to understanding a different culture is to look at it with open eyes, unadulterated with any "cultural filters". As someone who has been raised here all of my life I have to try to see other cultures and religions with open eyes; its difficult to not mentally ridicule everything we see that is different than what we know and have been used to all our lives.

The First thing to understand about Islam is the integral belief that god is Absolutely Just. He would never create injustice towards women or men. If any injustice is seen in a society or by the practitioners of a religion it is most probably separate from the true spirit of the religion. In ANY society it is so. It has most probably been created by people and most definitely not by god.

Islam views men and women as two completely equal individuals. Yet it's very apparent to us that men and women are not the same in equal ways. For example one is physically stronger. Another is able to bear children. Another is less emotionally sensitive while the other is more so. It's very obvious that they are not equal in a "split down the line" way. So how am I saying they are equal as individuals in Islam? They are equal if looked at in the whole scheme of things. One has more rights in a certain area that complements who they are while another has less rights in a certain area where it may benefit it them. It doesn't make sense for two individuals to split things down the line while they have completely different needs and wants. Yet these are two beings created by god as equals at the end of the day. Anyone who claims a woman has less rights than a man or that a man has less rights than a women is claiming that god is unjust and this would go against the base doctrine of any religion.

I'll give examples: In islam a man is required by religious law to provide anything his wife needs as far as money, clothes, a comfortable home, a car...etc. It is his duty to provide as best as he can and if he doesn't he's actually failed in his religious duty. As in he has sinned! Islamically the women isn't required to lift a finger to wash dishes...vacuum, take care of the kids...etc. She can if she wants, but that's upto her. Of course normally both people chip in as best as they can but we're speaking specific rights. On the flipside it's the husbands right to have to upto 4 wives if he wants (can handle without hurting himself or going crazy). Apart from this he doesn't have really any rights over his wife. Frankly it seems like the woman gets the better end of the deal but having to deal with childbirth, menopause...etc pretty much settles the score.

The right to vote, to own property, to choose their own life partner were all given to women more than 1400 years ago and practiced. This is the reality of Islamic Law.

As to the question on who can interpret a text its much easier in Islam than in other religions. We only have 2 main sects and even these two sects agree on almost everything except one small issue. An outsider looking at these two sects would think that they were the same. So unlike Christianity where you have so many different beliefs and sects we don't have that problem so much. I would wager a guess that 80-90 percent of muslims agree on about 95% of religious issues. That's where the authority of interpretation comes from.

[ajgs500]

Ok banner doesnt answer questions well. I wanted specific documentation from the Koran.  Or some other reputable source.  ie journal article, etc.  Sorry I have a higher standard.

[pandy]

Ok banner doesnt answer questions well. I wanted specific documentation from the Koran.  Or some other reputable source.  ie journal article, etc.  Sorry I have a higher standard.

So ask away...i'll try my best to answer

He never promised perfection or great scholarly works. He said he'd do his best, and I think he's tried hard, despite being picked on since the second he first posted. 

Now...who was it that said this sort of information could be found in libraries... ?

[Jake D]

That's asking a lot.  Since never said he would try to show you specific documentation from the koran.  He said he'd try to answer you questions.  You can't make the rules here.  You have to play by someone elses rule.  And he did answer your question so ask another or. . .

[ajgs500]

Yeah I guess I will have to go to the damn library cause his answering ability sucks or my questions are too hard.  And to include specific's from the Koran was a part of my question.

[st8racin]

I'm still trying to figure out why we're talking about religion on a motorcycle forum.... 

I'm sorry but I've never been a fan of religious debates...and yes I know, if I don't like then don't read it blah blah blah.

[ajaxgs]

That's asking a lot.  Since never said he would try to show you specific documentation from the koran.  He said he'd try to answer you questions.  You can't make the rules here.  You have to play by someone elses rule.  And he did answer your question so ask another or. . .

owwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jake D]

I'm sorry, but that puppy in the picture is so damn funny.  Look at those eyes. 

[ajgs500]

Ok I have another question....  Why in Islamic societies does democracy have such a hard time being an effective form of government???

[ajaxgs]

 

[Jake D]

Too many parties.  Too many factions.  It is like Ross Perot taking votes away from the Democrats, except there is like 10 Ross Perots.

[banner]

If you want verses from the quran i can supply those too but the thing about Islam is that the have two bodies of law. One is the quran and the other is the Hadiths. The hadiths are more precise and specific about rules while the quran is broad and statest he general laws and theories. I'll see what i can find in the Quran and hadiths and post those as well.

BTW its a beautiful friday here in SD...
Ride easy

[RVertigo]

Why in Islamic societies does democracy have such a hard time being an effective form of government???

It's not limited to Islamic countries.  Any country that has vastly differing groups will have problems, especially when one is much smaller than the others.

In the US, it may seem like we're all VASTY different, but we aren't.  There are groups that want to eliminate freedom of religion, speech, press, etc, but for the most part our country wants to keep these things...  Think back to the US before the human rights movement.  That's basically what some countries are going through.  Our country made laws that made blacks 3rd class citizens.  AND they couldn't vote, so there was no way to change the system by using the system.

It's the same exact thing.  Each group has their own agenda and the hate runs deep between each group...  So, the biggest group wins and the smallest group has NO rights.


Once equality can be worked out to a point of at least 45/55 (or 30/30/40), the system can work a little better...  When a country is deeply divided by hate, it WILL fail...  The smaller group WILL be persecuted.

[Jake D]

Seems obvious to me.  But I am a political scientist.  And the paper on my wall does say "Juris Doctor" on it.  But I'm not muslim, so I'll defer to banner anyway.

[Unnamed]

Islamically there is no such thing as holy war. We don't have any phrase in arabic that says holy war...lol

The only permissible way to wage war is self-defense. Even then civilians, crops, and non-military targets are off limits.

As to the Saudi thing...hehe yeah. Me thinks there are some issues to resolve

You're technically right, but war in "self defense" can be variously interpreted to mean a lot of things. Is it self defense if someone invades you? Of course. Is it self defense if they're preparing to invade you? Probably. Is it self defense if they *might* be planning to invade you? Not really, but if you're wrong then you're kinda screwed. You keep going and eventually you'll find people who consider it self defense to fight against the influx of foreign ideals and influence. Thus, despite the Qur'anic prohibition on offensive war, you'll always find people willing to consider war for "self defense". You must also recall that Muhammad's battles were not totally defensive. Just playing devil's advocate.

Back to the original question, perhaps you're referring to the doctrine of jihad which recieves so much press? Jihad itself has two aspects, a major and a minor. The major struggle is the challenge laid upon each person to be as faithful and as upright as possible. The lesser jihad is war. Both are considered holy struggles, but Muhammad himself instructed that war is less holy than the everyday battle to be a good Muslim. Like other doctrines of faith, this has been upended by violent people for their own ends.

Also, I'd like to expand on banner's Women answer, because I feel that it sounds a bit like an apologetic answer. The key to helping people understand is not to convince them that Islam is all good, because of course this is inaccurate. Rather, I think its more important to have a full and open dialogue where the faults of Islam (or rather, the practice of Islam) are laid out and addressed. If I'm misrepresenting what you wrote, I apologize. The treatment of women is an issue, and one that I have questions about as well. Mine centers around the women's place in worship. According to the Qur'an, everyone should be equal under God. For this reason the early practice of Islam kept all worshippers on the same level and did not give preference to anyone. Somewhere between then and now, this ideal has been corrupted. The Saudis (who I use as an example, not as the norm), keep men and women isloated during services. Women don't lead prayer. Ever. Even in North America it is a news-worthy event when a woman leads prayer which can provoke protests (see Amina Wadud's effort in New York in 2005).

I see the separation of men and women as an issue that Muslims still need to work on addressing. I know that it is justified by the logic that a woman leading prayers can inspire lust in men, however its a pretty poor solution to keep them totally separated. I don't think its integral to Islam that women be restrained as such, in fact I see it as a corruption. However, it still must be dealt with.

Also AJ, as you might guess, Muslims don't tend to be down with teh gheys. The interesting thing is that absolutely no one talks about it. A book from a professor of mine (Omid Safi) called Progressive Muslims is the only one I know of to include a chapter on the treatment of homosexuals under Islamic systems. He has an anecdote about trying to publish the book in Saudi Arabia at the request of a Saudi princess, who said she loved the book but wanted him to remove that chapter. It seems to me that ghey issues aren't even going to enter into the public consciousness for a while in most of the Islamic world.

[RVertigo]

Why defer?  You know it's not Islam specifically...  It's just what group isolationism (aka hate) does to government.

[banner]

Rvertigo...that is true:

One point of frustration amoung many muslims that i know is a feeling of the US holding back their political development in because of political control and oil. For example Egypt, one of the most oppressive countries out there is the 2nd largest recipient of US foreign aid. Hosni Mubarak (egypts "president") is pretty much a dictatorial king and hes not going anywhere. Mostly because of this foreign aid egyptians have been unable to form their own form of government. And they are kinda angry about it because they feel the US is holding them back from what they could be. While not all the blame can be placed on one party in this case, much of it justifiably can.

I personally think if these countries were left alone they would naturally form more democratic governments; its a very natural form of progression

Comments?

[Unnamed]

Rvertigo...that is true:

One point of frustration amoung many muslims that i know is a feeling of the US holding back their political development in because of political control and oil. For example Egypt, one of the most oppressive countries out there is the 2nd largest recipient of US foreign aid. Hosni Mubarak (egypts "president") is pretty much a dictatorial king and hes not going anywhere. Mostly because of this foreign aid egyptians have been unable to form their own form of government. And they are kinda angry about it because they feel the US is holding them back from what they could be. While not all the blame can be placed on one party in this case, much of it justifiably can.

I personally think if these countries were left alone they would naturally form more democratic governments; its a very natural form of progression

Comments?

This is going to get very wild very fast. Just let me mention that it sure ain't just Muslims who feel this way. Please open your books to "Columbia", "Brazil", "Ecuador", "Panama", and many many more.