Grrr...Broken Exhaust Header Bolts

[MarkusN]

The bolts are actually a quite decent steel quality. But the location spells trouble. Hot. Steel in aluminum. Not what bolts like. Using a heat-resistant solid lubricant (copper paste) is a must.

[flyingbeagle71]

The bolts are actually a quite decent steel quality. But the location spells trouble. Hot. Steel in aluminum. Not what bolts like. Using a heat-resistant solid lubricant (copper paste) is a must.

+1 

I wish now that I would have removed them earlier and put the antiseize on.  I will when I put the new bolts in, that's for sure.  I'll probably remove them every month or so and re-antiseize them.  I figure I may have to replace the copper washer under the header clamp, but it's not too expensive...cheaper than having the have the bolts pulled...

[sledge]

The bolts sieze due to whats known as Galvanic corrosion. Its a chemical reaction between 2 dissimilar metals and an electrolyte, usually acidic rain or salty water. The moisture in the air will do it but it just takes longer. The heat generated in the cylinder acts as a catalyst and increases the rate it forms at. The resulting corrosion build up takes the form of a white powdery type substance, you might under certain conditions see it where steel bolts pass through aluminium parts such as casings etc.  A coating of coppa-slip or similar wont prevent galvinic corrosion from occuring but will prevent the formed corrosion from causing the bolts to sieze, Once a year or part of the 6000 mile service a light coating will help but once a month is excessive and really not needed. A light coat is all thats required, too much might cause a hydraulic lock and prevent the bolt from fully entering the hole. The best way to overcome the problem is to remove and throw the OEM bolts away and fit high tensile steel studs and nuts. Once the stud is in the head, theory says you should never have to remove it again. Stainless may sound better but it lacks tensile strength particularly if a course thread pitch is used and if you shear one your right back at the start. Aluminium alloys are highly prone to galvanic action but the fact they are cheap to produce, lightweight, easy to cast and tool etc in terms of mass production far outweigh any disadvantages realting to galvanic action from the manufactures point of view.

[flyingbeagle71]

The bolts sieze due to whats known as Galvanic corrosion. Its a chemical reaction between 2 dissimilar metals and an electrolyte, usually acidic rain or salty water. The moisture in the air will do it but it just takes longer. The heat generated in the cylinder acts as a catalyst and increases the rate it forms at. The resulting corrosion build up takes the form of a white powdery type substance, you might under certain conditions see it where steel bolts pass through aluminium parts such as casings etc.  A coating of coppa-slip or similar wont prevent galvinic corrosion from occuring but will prevent the formed corrosion from causing the bolts to sieze, Once a year or part of the 6000 mile service a light coating will help but once a month is excessive and really not needed. A light coat is all thats required, too much might cause a hydraulic lock and prevent the bolt from fully entering the hole. The best way to overcome the problem is to remove and throw the OEM bolts away and fit high tensile steel studs and nuts. Once the stud is in the head, theory says you should never have to remove it again. Stainless may sound better but it lacks tensile strength particularly if a course thread pitch is used and if you shear one your right back at the start. Aluminium alloys are highly prone to galvanic action but the fact they are cheap to produce, lightweight, easy to cast and tool etc in terms of mass production far outweigh any disadvantages realting to galvanic action from the manufactures point of view.

Cool, thanks for the info, maybe once a month is a little often.  I just don't want to deal with this again...

I like the idea of replacing with studs and using nuts...may look into that as well...

[MarkusN]

Stainless may sound better but it lacks tensile strength particularly if a course thread pitch is used and if you shear one your right back at the start.

I know about the limitations of stainless, but I figured I'd just give it a try at the original torque specifications, and they held up well. Shearing a new stud from overtorquing is also not quite the same situation as shearing a bolt that is corroded fast. Once it's tension free you should be able to EZ-out this one easily, as it just sits loosely in the thread.

[flyingbeagle71]

Well, this isn't going good...the shop just called, they need to remove the engine.  3 Hours Labor or $240...plus they're charging another $78 for the work they've did up to this point, or haven't did in this case....   A new head assembly from Ron Ayers is only $498, this comes with all the valves and everything, which I don't need, I just need the head.  There's a used 89 head on ebay for $150, it's black and would look bad, but I really don't care about that.  I'm more concerned that the 89 head won't work on a 04...

I think at this point I'll get the bike back and take the motor out myself.  Probably check a few local machine shops to see how much they would charge to fix it.  I don't really want to pay the stealership the $78 though, they didn't do anything...I don't have a problem paying them something, but not the full $78...Am I way off base here???

[wever411]

Where can one buy this copper paste/coppa-slip in the US? Is it available at certain stores? What is the recommended torque spec on the header bolts?

[sledge]

This is what you ideally need, it is expensive but a tin lasts for ages we use it at work constantly.

Dhttp://www.newmantools.com/rocol/rocj166.htm

Dont use a lot on the threads otherwise they wont engage. However as you only need a small amount auto-shops over here sell similar stuff in a small "toothpaste tube" style at a realistic price so I suggest you try that approach first. BTW a light smear on the back of brake pads can also prevent them squealing, just dont get any on the contact faces.
The torque figs are in the workshop/service manuals, I am at work right now and dont have them to hand but someone will post them before long.

[The Buddha]

I use that on lots of the bolts etc, you can actually put it on the engine side, and glue your gasket to the cover (alternator cover, valve cover etc) and it will literally slide off once un bolted. It conducts electricity so you can put it on spark plugs too, but yea use very very little.
Cool.
Srinath.

[MarkusN]

Torque is 9..12 Nm

[Gisser]

Well, this isn't going good...the shop just called, they need to remove the engine.  3 Hours Labor or $240...plus they're charging another $78 for the work they've did up to this point, or haven't did in this case....  
...Am I way off base here???

WTH??!!!  You quoted us $20 per stud on the bike from the dealership.  I did indicate in a prior post that that might be a lot of work for that amount of money but if they gave that estimate then you have the grounds to argue the bill.      Don't pay it.   

Just remove the head in the frame.  It's fairly simple and we'll talk you through it.   

 

[sledge]

The dealer is bullshitting you, section 3.3 of the official suzuki service manual states it possible to remove the head with the engine in the frame, perhaps someone could scan a copy and forward it to you, then go to the dealer, ask them exactly why the engine has to come out, let them dig a hole for themselves, get it in writting if poss. THEN show them the manual and refuse to pay on the grounds they dont know what they are talking about. They are milking the job, lets be honest would you know if the engine has been out of the frame when you picked it up?? ok they could swap the nuts around so it looks like they have been off but you would never know. Chances are they would have farmed the stud removal job out anyway, they need to charge by the hour to make a profit and its too much messing around . Get a good manual, take the head off yourself, its not difficult with some self-confidence. take it to a reputable engine reconditioning company, they will have the knowledge and gear to to do the job and its probably what the dealer would have done anyway. I did a search and found this guy, my view is he knows what he is talking about, wouldnt hurt to give him a call.
http://www.brokentap.com/easy-outs.html

[flyingbeagle71]

I've got a Suzuki Repair Manual and a Clymer Manual, so I think with a little help I shouldn't have much trouble getting it apart.  I'm just really pissed off at the dealership.  I should have known that $19 per bolt wasn't realistic...  I'm going to pick the bike up tomorrow and I'll try to talk to the service manager about getting the bill reduced.  I don't mind paying a little, they did look at it after all...but $80 for no progress and $312 to finish...I don't think so...

[flyingbeagle71]

Well, at least I got my bike back!!  The shop only charged $30 for the work they've did so far.  Alot better than the $80 they said yesterday.  He did get them part way out, but is having problem getting them the rest of the way.  He's pretty sure one is cross threaded (stupid previous owner!!!)...I'll start taking the head off tonight after work.  It sure is nice having my baby home!!!

Just wondering...Is it "bad" for the bike to run it without the headers installed???  Would it run really lean because of the increased airflow???

[The Buddha]

Very very bad ... Lean, yes, it will scorch the front fender and frame, as well as very possibly bend the valves when you get it hot and it cools off too rapidly. When I had open pipes on the bike ... it was a wide open D&D, I'd stuff a rag down the end of the pipe after stopping it. I forgot a few times and saw that valves didn't get bent. So I stopped.
Cool.
Srinath.

[flyingbeagle71]

Very very bad ... Lean, yes, it will scorch the front fender and frame, as well as very possibly bend the valves when you get it hot and it cools off too rapidly. When I had open pipes on the bike ... it was a wide open D&D, I'd stuff a rag down the end of the pipe after stopping it. I forgot a few times and saw that valves didn't get bent. So I stopped.
Cool.
Srinath.

Okay, so I won't run it without the heads on...  Oh well, it would've sounded cool without the heads... 

[flyingbeagle71]

Okay, quick update.  I've got the tank off, airbox off, carbs off, valve covers off and camshafts off.  Everything has went pretty well.  Now I'm working on the 8 bolts holding the cylinder head on.  Four of them are outside the head and four are inside the head.  The inside bolts are really tight, but do move.  The four outside bolts are not moving at all.  I've tried WD and no go.  Any ideas?  Maybe a different brand of penetrating oil???  Maybe an air powered tool???  Maybe a stick of dynamite!!!!

BTW...I've got pictures of the bolts if needed.  I'm just to tired tonight to post them....

[Gisser]

The four outside bolts are not moving at all. 

Power tool will remove 'em no sweat.  Or an extension on the hand wrench (hopefully box or socket wrench).  There's probably some Loctite to break loose. 

Don't forget the little upside down bolt at the front of the engine.  Then, don't pry on the cooling fins; bap around the head with a rubber or plastic mallet to loosen.         

[flyingbeagle71]

Power tool will remove 'em no sweat. Or an extension on the hand wrench (hopefully box or socket wrench). There's probably some Loctite to break loose.

I've got access to an impact wrench and air compressor, I'll give that a shot.  I was just worried about snapping off something else, so I've been pretty gentle with taking it apart.

Don't forget the little upside down bolt at the front of the engine. Then, don't pry on the cooling fins; bap around the head with a rubber or plastic mallet to loosen.

Yep, got the little upside down bolt already.  Thanks for the tip on releasing the head...

I may have a few questions about putting the carbs back on in a few days, I took tons of pics to document how everything ran, but there are lots of hoses connected to it...

[flyingbeagle71]

The impact wrench worked great on the bolts.  It only took about 5 minutes and they were all loose.  Almost lost one of the copper crush washers down into the guts of the engine...that would have been bad!!  Anyway, I'm now having problems getting the cylinder head to separate from the ???Cylinder base???, um, the bottom half of the cylinder, not sure what it's called...  I have tried the rubber mallet, but the whole cylinder assembly is starting to separate from the base of the engine.

Here is a few pictures of what I'm talking about.

Engine - Right Side:  I thought it was supposed to come apart right in the middle of the fins...



Engine - Lower Right Side:  Instead it's coming apart here...notice the leaking oil...does this mean I'm going to have to replace that gasket now???



Engine - Right Side Nuts:  Right side nuts have been removed...



Engine - Left Side Nuts:  Left side nuts have been removed...



Engine - Inside Nuts:  All four inside have been removed...



Engine - Front:  Upside down front bolt has been removed...notice the two broken bolts...



I don't think I'm missing anything...