Grrr...Broken Exhaust Header Bolts

[Gisser]

I have tried the rubber mallet, but the whole cylinder assembly is starting to separate from the base of the engine.

Uh, oh.  That wasn't part of the game plan.  The head is supposed to separate from the top of the cylinders.  Drat.

..does this mean I'm going to have to replace that gasket now???

That would be the safest course of action.  OTOH, did the gasket tear?  Is it stuck to one surface or the other?  I suppose you could raise the cylinders a bit (after removing the head) and check the condition of the gasket.  If it's intact perhaps it can be resealed with case sealant.  

[Mandres]

You might be able to reuse the base gasket, but you'll have to clean off all the old goop and coat it with a spray-on gasket sealant.  A new one is only $5 and if you're replacing the head gasket and o-rings anyway you might as well replace that one too.

I had the same issue when I took my engine apart; it's basically impossible to get the head off without disturbing that gasket unless you rig up some kind of clamp to hold the cylinders to the block.  Keep in mind that you'll have to pull the cylinders to change that gasket and that means you should deglaze the cylinder bores.  Autozone will loan you a hone for this.  Go ahead and clean the pistons and rings while you're in there too, get rid of the nasty carbon buildup. 

[MarkusN]

Srinath is probably laughing his ass off right now.

"Toleyaso!"

OK, dont know if glee fits with his personality, so I shut up now.

[The Buddha]

Not glee, but I'd never pass up a chance to point out someone's bad design ...
I'd like to drag the mofo who designed this crap into a field and beat him ...
Or better yet, he should be condemned to a fate of being the mobile mechanic who will come to your house and fix these things for you for the rest of his miserable, high faluting, office desk warming, theory spouting, magazine interview giving, sales brochure writing, motor cycle show displaying, techo jargon spewing, newbie impressing, white glove wearing life.
1/2 the freaking time, I believe they never pull them apart and never give any thought to how its going to get out of there if needed ... Like a Yamaha maxim air box ... you'll never ever get it out with the motor in the frame. And a damn maxim X - while it got similar everythign to a maxim, its got shorter air box boots and longer manifolds (like it mae a diff) so you have 10 times more trouble pulling its carbs out ... Why no clue ...
BTW - OK while the result is the same, I didn't anticipate this, though in future I will ...  ...
I thought it will be a beast to get out due to the sticking out studs ... and very very very likely that the base gasket gets knocked off in the process ... here we have the damn thing not comming off ... same problem, but a bit different route of failure ...
And now this is what you'd have to do IMHO ...
Put the whole thing back together ... then yank the motor out of the frame. There is a great chance of damage to rods etc if you have the upper end loose while yanking the motor. Obviously, hone cyls, and get new rings and hand gap them and hand fit it.
In any case, I'd have pulled them exhaust bolts with the motor still assembled, but that's just me ...
Cool.
Srinath.

[Mandres]

In any case, I'd have pulled them exhaust bolts with the motor still assembled, but that's just me ...
Cool.
Srinath.

Me too, but hindsight is always 20/20 I guess. 

[flyingbeagle71]

Went back out last night, and used my forcefull tapping.  I was able to hit a piece of 2X4 at a upward angle on the front of the engine and the cylinder head came right off.  Well...after about 15 minutes of wiggling and pulling and tugging.  It lifts right out the top of the frame.  I think the lower section will come out as well.  So, it is possible to remove the cylinder head with the engine still in the bike...but, it probably would have been easier to just remove the engine first and work off the bench...  Oh well...  I'll work on removing the rest of the cylinder tonight.

This is all new to me, a blast, but new...what's hand gapping???

I've disassembled many RC airplane engines and the insides are always squeaky clean, the inside if my cylinder is black and flaky.  Tons of carbon buildup...is that normal?

[The Buddha]

In any case, I'd have pulled them exhaust bolts with the motor still assembled, but that's just me ...
Cool.
Srinath.

Me too, but hindsight is always 20/20 I guess. 

Yea right ... I am not talking hind sight types, I am talking prior experience. I ahve done it that way before.
Now beagle - the rings you would buy are sorta to be fitted to each cylinder. They would be a general size that is close. So you'd have to file them for fit. It will fit just that cylinder and its supposed to be gapped for it and fitted to it. That will make them seal up great in the cyl and make for a motor that doesn;t start using oil or have breakin trouble. Yea you're gonna have to break it in - but more like 500 miles not the original 2000. AKA 5K for 600 and 2000 for 8K. Or whetever is it.
Cool.
Srinath.

[Mandres]

Hand gapping refers to fitting new piston rings by filing the ends to set the proper gap.  I used new rings on my rebuild and did not have to file them at all; they came out of the package perfectly within spec.  

It's definitely easier to work on the engine once it's out of the frame but getting it back in is a biiiiitch.  That was by far the hardest part of the rebuild for me.  The carbon buildup is normal, just hit it with some gasket remover and clean it all up the best you can.  

[The Buddha]

You bought suzuki stock rings didn't ya ... Lemme guess ... they were easy to fit and press the cylinder over too Yea ... that's why the damn bike bleeds so much oil. The rings are like ... like ... flaccid ... You need rings that have a good bit of tension. The generic's from good makes, with ID, OD, thinckness and material specs, make great rings. Those you hand fit, you can use the new suzuki oil rings though. But 1 and 2 are best as generic. BTW suzuki's 1/2 mm over size rings are pretty stiff. But 1/2mm is too much to hand grind down 1/4 mm is all you're supposed to do evidently.
Cool.
Srinath.

[Mandres]

You bought suzuki stock rings didn't ya ... Lemme guess ... they were easy to fit and press the cylinder over too Yea ... that's why the damn bike bleeds so much oil. The rings are like ... like ... flaccid ... You need rings that have a good bit of tension. The generic's from good makes, with ID, OD, thinckness and material specs, make great rings. Those you hand fit, you can use the new suzuki oil rings though. But 1 and 2 are best as generic. BTW suzuki's 1/2 mm over size rings are pretty stiff. But 1/2mm is too much to hand grind down 1/4 mm is all you're supposed to do evidently.
Cool.
Srinath.

  I used stock rings and haven't had any of those problems.  Compression is perfect on both sides and there has been no measurable oil consumption since the rebuild.

[The Buddha]

Run 10K or so and it will freaking leak like a sieve ... a bike with the right rings will see a 100K before it starts using oil (oh yea we still got POS guides ) ...
Cool.
Srinath.

[flyingbeagle71]

Another update, it's not been very encouraging.  Head's came off and where brought into the shop, they snapped the bolts off many many times.  Cylinder head is all scratched and gouged where he tried to get them out with a bolt extractor.  They are saying a new head is needed...I mentioned heli-coiling again and they said they know of a machine shop that might be able to do it.      At least they are saying no charges for the second attempt since there was no progress...

So at this point I do one of the following:

1. Try to drill and heli-coil it myself.
2. Find a machine shop to drill and heli-coil.
3. Buy a used head, I've found a 95, but i'd have to change over to a mechanical tach to use it. ~ $100 after buying a used tach and head and cylinders (just to make sure the color matches)...
4. Buy a new head. ~ $500
5. Hang up riding for now and keep looking for a used '04+ head.

Kinda back where I started...

I'm tempted to try and drill myself, then either get a new or used head if I mess it up...

[LimaXray]

Why would you have to use a mechanical tach to use the 95 head?  Just block off the tach port on the head and keep the electronic tach. 

Try to drill/tap/helicoil it yourself.  It's not that hard, just take your time.  The only problem you may have is exhaust bolts have a tendancy to become very very hard from constantly thermocycling making drilling them a pita.  Get a good drill bit, use lots of oil, and drill very slowly and you should be fine.  Worst case, you f' it up and need a new head.

[flyingbeagle71]

Why would you have to use a mechanical tach to use the 95 head?  Just block off the tach port on the head and keep the electronic tach. 

Try to drill/tap/helicoil it yourself.  It's not that hard, just take your time.  The only problem you may have is exhaust bolts have a tendancy to become very very hard from constantly thermocycling making drilling them a pita.  Get a good drill bit, use lots of oil, and drill very slowly and you should be fine.  Worst case, you f' it up and need a new head.

Thanks for the info, if I could still use the electric tach (not really sure how it works compared to the mechanical) it would save a bunch.  Total of about $60 for a cylinder and cylinder head for a 95.  The color would be different, but hey, that just adds character to the bike.  Sounds like I'll be drilling this weekend... 

I just found another place with an 04 head for $300.  Seems a bit steep, new is only $500...

[Mandres]

Any machine shop could easily helicoil that hole for you.  Take it to someone who knows what they're talking about and it shouldn't cost you much at all. 

[coll0412]

Find a machine shop that specilizes in cylinder head repair(motorcycle even better) they will jig it up in a drill press and drill the sucker out, then oversize drill, special helicoil tap, insert helicoil, and voilla threads that are stronger than the original. Most places only charge like $35 a bolt, so even if you have to maybe ship it, its still cheaper.

Here is a local company here in MN that specilizes in motorycle engine repair and such, this is what you are looking for

http://www.billbune.com/main.html

[Gisser]

It's not too late to slap that head back on the engine, bolt the engine back in the frame, suspend the motorcycle from the rafters and go at with a hand drill.  Piece of cake! 

[sledge]

I sympathise with you. The whole experience just goes to prove that removing broken header or any bolts for that matter can be far from easy and best left to the experts. Not every Machine shop is kitted up for this type of job, you need to find an Engine rebuild/reconditioning firm or send the head to a specialist company. There is a few outfits over here that do this sort of thing but after a search this guy seems to be most likely to help you.
http://www.brokentap.com/easy-outs.html

[The Buddha]

I guess get that old head, rebuild the head - new valves, seats and guides - kibblewhite makes them - excellent stuff, and put new rings in it and go.
And no do not do the rafters thing at this time, that ship has sailed.
Cool.
Srinath.

[MarkusN]

put new rings in it and go.

That would mean hone the cylinders as well, no?