PA State Helmet Enforcement

[Michael]

It's Darwinism...... natural selection.   -Anti

Darwinism and Natural Selection are not the same thing and are only vaguely related but I see your point.  The issue of helmet laws opens a number of cans of worms, let's see if I can distill a few things here-
1/ Governments may be elected by the people but they do not answer to the people and they act on two principles- party philosophy and media whining (the squeaky wheel principle).  2/We all agree that wearing a GOOD helmet is a good idea most of the time, but some of us seem to overlook the fact that serious crashes can happen at very low speeds (the slowest fatal crash I have personally heard of was in a m/cycle cop who fell off while parking,).  3/While it's all very well to say as an adult I should be able to make up my own mind, I think we all know people who are adults with the same rights as us but who for whatever reason (eg stupidity) are NOT safe to make up their own minds on many issues.  Responsible society will want to protect these vulnerable folks from themselves and as doing so on a case by case basis would be prohibitively expensive and time-consuming we need to frame laws that will do it.  Unfortunately this often means that we have to forego some freedoms in the process.  Our priority should be not the removal of all such laws but to ensure our legislators enact appropriate laws that provide a balance between the conflicting demands.  4/ If you want to demand a freedom which exposes you to risks which most other members of your society would consider unacceptably excessive, I believe you must be prepared to fully accept the consequences of that decision, including paying for your own health costs and any costs incurred by others you may injure (this includes the stress placed on those who have to see you splatter yourself all over the highway), explaining to those who love you why your choice of hazardous pursuit means more to you than does their feelings, and publicly absolving society of any responsibility for what happens to you.  Only once you have severed all ties will you truly be "free" to do as you please.
This may sound like I'm preaching against any risk at all, but please, I ride a motorcycle so that is clearly not true.  All I'm saying is that we are not independent of the rest of our society and we have to keep the risks we take in perspective.

[pdg108]

Continued post hijack:

Jared,

For the record, I wear a helmet EVERYTIME I ride, using a seatbelt is such a habit, I put it on when just moving the car in the driveway, and I have NEVER smoked anything in my life.

But what people do in the privacey of there own homes is thier buisness.   And, smoking in bars and resturants should be left to take care of itself.  I don't like smoke, so I don't go to smokey bars, if enough people are like me then the bar owner will relize it and if he wants to make money will make it a no smoking place.  Besides, its a bar, they are supposed to be dark and smokey.  I don't go to a motorcycle race and complain that I can smell exhaust fumes.

Smokers are a dieing breed (pun intended).  You see them standing outside places like societal outcasts, they never look happy.  How anyone would start smoking is beyond me.  But, I still don't believe it is my goverments job to protect them from themselves.  They are adults, they can make there own descisions.

OK...now back to motorcycle stuff.  

[Jared]

Hijack continued.

Ok PDG I just got the impression that you were pro-smoking. I'm glad you wear your helmet and seatbelt- good things to do.

Dying breed.....maybe but I see kids smoking all the time...So the stupidity continues.

I just want to grab em by the neck and shake the stupidity/ naive "Oh that wont happen to me" mentality out of them.

Should governement have to step in with smoking laws....in this case yes because it hurts everyone not just the smokers ( the smoke..). Since most smokers are too damn selfish and inconsiderate to go away from the non-smokers . Yeah you see em outside of stores etc but you have to walk through that crap filled air to get in  the store don't you?  It had to be legislated - not that that deters half of them.


Want to know why this strikes a nerve so bad with me??

I survived (so far) Hodgkins Disease ( cancer )... I did 6 months of Chemotherapy ...followed by a Stem Cell Transplant...(essentially the same as a bone marrow transplant) .. then I did a year of Chemotherapy again after the Stem Cell Transplant. I've lived through the HELL ( that word doesn't do it justice) personally.

Lung Cancer isn't cureable.

I was anti-smoking before but I'm 10 times more vocal now.  I'm  at alot greater risk to get leukemia and about 10 other forms of cancer because of the treatments I had ( I had to sign a waiver saying the stem cell transplant would probably cause the other stuff later and I couldn't sue.. had to sign it or no transplant....well Geeee what do you think I did?)

When I smell the slightest wiff of cigarrette smoke it makes me insane...


You see - which breath of what poison is going to be the breath that triggers cancer again......I don't live my life by that (no Boy ina bubble or anything)...but It's never really out of my mind...(a joy I get to have for the rest of my life..).
You see if I get any cancer again I'm pretty much dead. You can only have so much of the drugs they give you and you can't have anymore...Adriamycin for one - (I've had  a large volume of 10 diffgerent drugs like that one/including that one)... Killer kool-aid  it's referred to... (it's a red liquid that looks like Kool-aid)  it destroys your heart muscles...you have a lifetime-dose you can have then no more...

So yes back to the core subject...

No we shouldn't have to have helmet laws if everyone was smart enough to wear them to begin with.

[pdg108]

[vmichel]

I dislike mandatory helmet laws because they encourage people to wear helmets that don't fit, which can be worse than no helmet at all. I was just converted this weekend when I was talking to a dad who showed me the huge helmet he made his daughter wear when she was on the back. I pointed out that is was several sizes too big and likely to slam back and cause serious damage in even a minor accident, he says "well at least she's legal with it."

[snapper]

vmichel- you have a good point there.  Many people don't KNOW how a helmet shoudl fit, only that they NEED one.  It's frustrating for me to see kids riding down the sidewalk on their bikes with the helmets on but hanging off the side of their head or off the back.  Hello!  Thats not going to help them!!!  

Do we need an ad campaign to sweep across the nation like they did with the smoking ads?  Which really did nothing.  
Do you remember a few years ago the smoking commercials that they had on... like the one with the beach and all the body bags.  Good commercial...but it fell on deaf ears.

[cjs159]

So, from what I've read, the concensus seems to be...axe the law, but wear the helmet.  Be responsible enough to wear the helmet, and make sure it fits, for all riders.  It's the age old story of authority vs. anti-authority.  Tell someone they are prohibited to do something, and they do it just dispite you.  Law breakers...  I agree that 'some' people are not able to logically think for the safety of themselves and/or the others around them, thus the law.  Yet, I also agree that this particular law, along with the seatbelt, is for the safety of the individual and not the group.  So, if one's responsible enough to determine what is safe and what isn't, there's no need for a law.  Smoking, on the other hand, involuntarily harms the health of other when it is present.  It is then our job as responsible adults to teach and guide the youth or others as to what's safe, harmful, dumb, stupid, moronic, etc.  Common sense issues can be difficult.  One would think that is just a right or wrong issue, but some issues are more sticky, thus the need of the 'man' to 'knowledgeably' (assuming the 'man' cares for our well being and not for pleasing the media, money hungry corps, or blackmailers with votes) decide the correct course of action.

Great posts everyone,  Thanks!  

[JasonB]

The law protects more than just the rider, it protects the family he may have at home that he supports with his employment. Cant support them when they are dead or disabled, then they again start living off the government and the taxpayers.

What is wrong with a law that hurts no one and saves lives? It shouldnt even have to be a law it should be done all the time already. Just because people know they should do something or shouldnt do something doesnt mean there shouldnt be laws. Would suck if your sister got raped and there was no law against it because well they rapist should have known not to do it and its wrong so we though why have a law against it?

[cjs159]

Would suck if your sister got raped and there was no law against it...

Thanks for the mental ...

I'm not saying there's no need for laws, there JayB, obviously there is given your awful example.  There is, however, different levels or degrees of lawful enforcement.  Helmet law vs. Rape case.  No comparison.  One is aware, in most cases, whether they're committing a crime or not vs. breaking some 'common sense' law.  As for protecting the family, it's in the individuals hands to determine whether or not he or she should wear a helmet in the instance of a fatal crash that would cripple his or her family.

[Rod]

I believe there should be a law. It may be overly paternalistic, but there will never be a 'group' if you don't protect the individuals. The safety of everyone on the road could be affected. A bird or a bee hitting a helmetless rider in the head could result in a crash involving other vehicles. Even if no one else is involved, there are always costs, direct and indirect - medical staff time, police pulled away from other duties, etc. You could reduce these costs by just dragging any bodies off to the side of the road - maybe that would get people to wear a helmet.
Ontario even has a mandatory bicycle helmet law for minors.

This may just be my Canadian, socialist ideals coming through but on the other hand, our beer is good!  

[JasonB]

I had to put a shocking mental image in your mind with the rape thing, grabs your attention and sways you more than say a law against selling lemonade on the corner without a permit.

This may just be my Canadian, socialist ideals coming through but on the other hand, our beer is good!  

Hah! I like that.

Oh well in the immortal words of Stan from Southpark "Don't Be ghey" .

[cjs159]

I hear ya...great posts!

Triple XXX's all around....

...on ROD!

[Delta88]

The problem is, where do we draw the line? Everyone with a family should have life insurance in case they die so their family is looked after financially. Should that be mandatory? People, (me included), should  limit their intake of fatty foods because they're bad for them. Should we put a five day waiting period on the purchase of Taco Bell Chalupas? Mmmmm...Chalupas - Sorry - You see my point. I think the mistake being made here is that "the Government" is supposed to cure all of our societal ills with more and more laws that infringe on the freedoms of law abiding citizens. With true freedom comes risk. This Nation, (sorry Canada, Great Britain, et al), was founded on the principles of individual freedoms. One of those freedoms is freedom from the tyranny of a heavyhanded government, (oooh, sorry again Great Britain). Just remember, a government that's big enough to give you everything you want, (including protection from your own stupidity), is big enough to take away everything you have.

[Laura]

I have absolutely nothing new to add to this discussion, but I'm not going to let that stop me from putting in my two cents.

I will always wear a helmet when I ride a motorcycle, just like I always wear a seatbelt, even if I am just moving my car from the street to the driveway. It's a good habit.

I don't believe it is the government's job to protect me from myself. I'm an adult and I can make my own decisions and live (or die) with the consequences of my choices. If we agree that the government can tell me to wear a helmet because it is dangerous not to, why can't the government tell me I can't ride a motorcycle at all because it is dangerous? Or rock climb? Or walk alone at night?

And as far as motorcyclists without helmets being a burden on society when we have to pay for their hospital bills, (I don't have any data so I probably should just shut up), but I just don't buy that argument. I would bet that there are far more healthcare costs that society pays for, from people who don't get the exercise they should or who habitually eat foods that are unhealthy, than from motorcyclists without helmets. Where do you draw the line?

That being said, I don't get too upset about the issue, because I think there are other things the government does that are cause for much more concern.

Laura

[jake42]

Brain good...

Brain smushed on road... not good.

i stick with my previous reasoning

jake

[The Antibody]

Thanks Jared,

 I know I'm late on the whole smoking thing, but I'm going to continue the highjack. I've heard those ideas in the past about boycotting bars and clubs because they have too many people smoking. Although great in economic theory, it cannot and will never work. I live in a small town. With perhaps less than 5 bars. All are plentiful with cigarette smoke. If I want to go out, I don't have a choice. When I'm at college, I cannot enter a building without suffocating through a plume of death smoke from all of the people that MUST burn one down before and after class. IT'S CRAZY!

 On a good note, I spent 8 months in Germany with the Army not long ago. The smoking here in the States is nothing by comparison. You can't even go into a diner, cafe, resturaunt, or even a grocery store without gagging!

 -Anti

[snapper]

[Cal Price]

There is no doubt that the personal choice/freedom argument is very compelling. On the other hand, many years ago before our helmet law I never used one but as things went on it just became an excuse for Old Bill to stop bikers without helmets on the premis that the lack of helmet was a probable indication that you had knicked the bike! A 197cc two-stroke Lambretta, naaaaar not likely. Now I always wear the plastic head, you know it makes sense.

[Rashad]

Back on topic....




Wear your helmet....

NUFF SAID.

[The Antibody]

Way to get us back on topic.

Thats sobering....... reeeeal sobering.

 -Anti