Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

[mjn12]

Well, its been a while since I've posted anything.  I'm close to going crazy waiting for a chance to ride, however the windchill has been bringing the temp down to -20 here in n.e. ohio and i'm not crazy enough to ride in that.

To ease some of the anxiety a lack of riding causes I've been reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.  I'd highly recommend checking the book out if you're into philosophy.  Despite the title, the book is only partially about a motorcycle trip.  The rest is a philosophical inquiry into values by a man who is constantly pursued by a ghost of his former self he has named Phaedrus.

Sorry if this is a repost, I did a search but I dind't find the title.  Just a great book for anyone whos stuck inside these cold winter months.

[ixolas]

I am currently reading it and was debating posting about it.  It is a good book and I've enjoyed reading it so far.

[Egaeus]

I read it after Rich's accident.  I didn't really agree with his take on the object of his obsession (I won't elaborate, since you haven't finished it), but it was an interesting book.

[walkingman]

For the first half of the book, it was shaping up to be one of my favorites ever. For the second half, I could hardly make myself finish it. It got to be just too much navel-gazing for me. But definitely worth the read.

[Unnamed]

I read the first few chapters and he basically just came off as a narcissistic, condescending prick to me.

[mjn12]

I kinda figured the ghost thing wasn't too much of a spoiler.  Its made pretty clear pretty early on in the book.

The first half of the book concentrates mostly on the ride. The second half digs into the philosophy aspect pretty heavilly so I guess If you're not really interested in wrapping your head around that then I could see how it could get boring to some. I love the way he takes philosopihcal concepts that I could barely stand to read about in a college couse and makes them so simple to understand and relate to just about anyone.

Narcissistic and condescending don't really describe the narrator at all.  He presents some very narcissistic views in the beginning but if you read on you realize that his aim is not to force those on you, but to explain the reason they exist and how they can be gotten rid of.

I'm not finished with the book, about 3/4 of the way done, but I'm loving it.

[Mandres]

I found the text online and just finished it today too.  I enjoyed the atmosphere and the stark writing style.  I agree that the heavy, heavy philosophical discussion lessened my enjoyment of the book.  I discovered in college that I have what seems to be a fairly common mental disorder: anytime Plato or Aristotle enter the scene my eyes glaze over and the drool starts to run. 

If you liked the author's writing style check out Robert Cormier.  The storytelling in this book reminds me a lot of his work.

[nightrider]

I have twice checked this book out from the library or bought it at the bookstore and was primed and ready to love it.

His analysis of motorcycles, events, and people's neuroses was okay with me.

However when he describes the group camping for the night and his son's "crazy" behavior and how he dealt with this by alienating, shaming, and turning his back on him, it made me sick to my stomach. I realized the guy was a narcissistic mindf%$k who was so "in his head", anal-retentive, detached, and analytical about life, and other people's mental problems, that he was incapable of basic common sense/love. He turned his amazing mental defense mechanisms in a hostile way on his own son, who he should have been trying to connect with.

Read that passage again and tell me how it could be any other way?

I have met pricks like this more than once. For example I served one tonight. chip on shoulder, OCD control freak, perceived faults (noodles too short) about perfectly good food, scary undercurrent of anger + hostility. Stiffed on the tip, no doubt due to some imagined slight.

Most of all I had a father like this, so I recognize it. Self-involved and perceptive of other people's faults, they never realize how f%$king idiotic, selfish, wrong, and wide of the mark they are themselves.

Read the end pages and tragically, his son was years later "murdered in San Francisco". Was this totally random or maybe related to how his father treated him? It all adds up to a picture I don't much like. I was sick, angry, and disgusted... couldn't believe this was considered a classic. I threw it away.

[Cal Price]

I am currently juggling two books, an Elvis Cole novel and Richard Dawkin's "The God Delusion"which has got my philosophy thinking-cap on, I just went on-line and ordered "Zen..." who knows perhaps I'll throw it away too, .......but I'll check it out first.

[Egaeus]

I just found that his whole obsession with Quality was pointless.  The perception of quality comes from shared experience.  Like the example of his English Comp. class.  He found that in general, the class agreed with the quality of writing among different papers.  So?  It's from learning the same language.  Everyone has essentially the same expectations. 

What about music?  I think Britney Spears is crap.  Her multiplatinum records would suggest that many people disagree.  If we were to rank musical quality, I'd put her well below the lovely notes that emanate from my ass.  Some would put her above Bach and Mozart.  So is her music good quality or not?

The same with beer.  Bud Light is the best-selling beer in America.  I'd rather drink water.  Is it good quality?

He make way too much of Quality.  He obsesses about how it's pretty much THE fundamental defining quality (different meaning) of the universe.  He's full of it.

[A_Steel_Horse]

Yeah, since I'm new here I'll reply to a 2 year old thread

I just find it funny that anytime someone boldly asserts a truth claim, people freak out and react like you've just personally assaulted them. Pirsig believes that Quality is the source of things, or at least part of a Trinity that comprise all things i.e. quality-subject-object.

I once asserted, flatly, that Coke is objectively the superior drink to Pepsi and that I could always argue for Coke's superiority on a number of different levels. People in the conversion got angry, called me an @$$hole, an elitist, etc. And all I did was claim that Coke is clearly better. Better in overall sales, better in taste, etc. Pepsi may be *sweeter*, and that's why it wins a 'sip' challenge, but if you have someone drink a whole can they'll prefer Coke in the long run. Trust me

As far as ZMM goes, I think Pirisg's claim can't be disproven, so in that sense it's like an argument for God. You just forget it, and see if the logic of it is sound. Just thinking about Quality will improve your thinking about a number of things and I doubt ever detract from your thinking and judgement, and therefore reading this book has value.

I'd argue with Pirsig that Quality is a fundamental constituent of man made things because things men make first exist in the mind, and then men's hands shape them into reality. Every engineer that has ever designed a motorcycle is working towards a perfect motorcycle 'object' that really can never be realized, yet some designs get closer than others. I don't think that object in nature are a projection of some Quality that exists somewhere in the Universe, beneath it, or outside of it (such as God's mind). So if you limit the discussion of Quality to "things that occur in the mind of man", you have a better discussion, one that isn't as harshly attacked, one that is potentially valuable.

Then again, maybe Pirisg is just that clever, that he'd assert something boldly, fully knowing that it would get people mulling over the idea, in essence infecting their minds and spreading the word.

[yamahonkawazuki]

Meh i find nothign of substance of RIchard dawkins, cal. to me, hes nothign more than a common athiest. which i find no fault with, even though im a christian. he sounds like everybody else. i satisfy my urge to read, by reading old threads here, and ( with the help of alcohol)  debate to myself how ican make them better, or at least add too them. without creating another "ROCK AND ROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL" thread

[TonyKZ1]

Ehh, just to add my $0.02 to this thread. I've bought the book used many years ago when I bought my first bike and started riding, read it, enjoyed it even though it got a little deep at times for me. I was somewhat surprised at the ending.
Tony