97 monster vs 02 sv650

[Johnny5]

so perhaps it's the same with ducati, i've just yet to have the pleasure of seeing it firsthand.

Once you ride them, you say to yourself, "So this is what everyone is talking about..."

It's a whole 'nother world, man.

+1
You, Debtman and me got the Monster fever bad! LOL...  There is a MINT, MINT, MINT '00 SV650 (actually, there's a couple of them) near me.  Really nice bikes, GREAT bang fer buck... but I'd rather have a Monster, even the Monster 620 over it(by a longshot).  I just can't buy one soon enough.  I think they look better, sound better, and fit me better (I have a pretty short inseam).  Monster is Pretty much the ultimate naked bike IMO.

[Alphamazing]

+1
You, Debtman and me got the Monster fever bad! LOL...  There is a MINT, MINT, MINT '00 SV650 (actually, there's a couple of them) near me.  Really nice bikes, GREAT bang fer buck... but I'd rather have a Monster, even the Monster 620 over it(by a longshot).  I just can't buy one soon enough.  I think they look better, sound better, and fit me better (I have a pretty short inseam).  Monster is Pretty much the ultimate naked bike IMO.

Nah, I'm not all super lusting after the Monster anymore. I'll admit they are nice to ride, but I am only really considering one, the older M900 i.e. (fuel injected). Whether you believe it or not, Ducatis do take a bit more upkeep than Japanese bikes, even the GS with it's 4000 mile valve adjustments are pretty simple.

[spc]

that's why you keep your jap bike for daily riding. 

[Johnny5]

Nah, I'm not all super lusting after the Monster anymore. I'll admit they are nice to ride, but I am only really considering one, the older M900 i.e. (fuel injected). Whether you believe it or not, Ducatis do take a bit more upkeep than Japanese bikes, even the GS with it's 4000 mile valve adjustments are pretty simple.

Cool, I hear ya...

But, Well, I am! (super lusting, that is).  I LOVE the sound, feel and fit. 

The 4 valve per cylinder water cooleds I'm sure are harder to adjust and expensive (just as the Japanese 4v water cooleds though clearly can go a LOT longer before checking), but I have yet heard anyone make a good case for why the 2 valve air cooled Ducatis are so much more upkeep than a lot of other bikes. They seem to typically have better brakes and bits, I mean clearly having to check them at 6k intervals is a drag (vs Japanese competitors at 12k or more), but honestly I have neither the time nor the desire at this point to do my own valve adjustments so the GS would be (is) more maintenance cost for me... also the 695 intervals are raised to 7500k so that's a plus.  From my perspective it seems that people equate the fact that you HAVE to maintain a Ducati, where a Japanese bike a lot of people don't care for them so well and they still keep running.  If you don't change the belts and make sure those valves are adjusted with the Desmos, you could be in for a heap o' trouble...  maintain them though and they seem to last a pretty long time.  I maintain my car on a pretty strict schedule, so I have no problem doing it with a bike. 

I could easily be happy with a 599 (I LOVE these bikes as well) and an SV650, but I'm just really head over heels for the Monsters.  The first used 620, 750, or 695 (I don't have a desire for anything more powerful than that, although an S2R 800 is also a player) I can afford I'm going to snag and put some pipes on it (if it doesn't already have).  Man, I can't wait...

That M900 is supposed to be a strong durable engine as well...

[Egaeus]

Why, objectively, is the desmodromic valve train more difficult/expensive to adjust?  Reading about it (I had no idea what desmodromic was), I don't understand why all high-revving engines don't use it.  Valve float?  What's that?

[spc]

It  is a great idea   makes for a great engine with plenty of power that's hard to kill of you do your maintenance

I just can't see it being all that much harder to mainain

[Alphamazing]

Why, objectively, is the desmodromic valve train more difficult/expensive to adjust?  Reading about it (I had no idea what desmodromic was), I don't understand why all high-revving engines don't use it.  Valve float?  What's that?

It's a really ingenious design, isn't it?

To be honest, I can't tell you why they require more regular valve servicing. Just a Ducati thing, I guess.

I had a really detailed post about the liquid cooled v. air cooled Desmo engines, as well as some good commentary on the characteristics of each and the overall reliability of Ducati. But I lost it. Oh well.

[Johnny5]

Why, objectively, is the desmodromic valve train more difficult/expensive to adjust?  Reading about it (I had no idea what desmodromic was), I don't understand why all high-revving engines don't use it.  Valve float?  What's that?

Well, from what I understand, it's not more difficult to adjust, just different.  Especially the 2v air cooled version.  The valves are opened closed by rocker arms instead of springs. It's a precise timing thing with rockers where as with conventional the spring snaps it back down, at high revs if it doesn't close right away that is called valve float. Clearly it's not to much of a problem though anymore, as most sportsbikes redline at like 16k LOL... According to Wiki, Desmo was a competetive advantage when it was first created because of inconsistencies in steel production... but that has LONG since stopped being an issue, hence the intervals of valve spring being able to go so long now.

Being more expensive is relative to what bike you are comparing, and whether you do your own work or bring it to the dealer, based on the intervals that it NEEDS to be done (in Ducati's case 6k miles for most, 7.5k on the 695).  If you are comparing to say a Honda 599 (or any Honda sportbike) their adjustment check intervals are anywhere from 15-20k miles.  SV650 is 12k... so that's the extra expense on the Duc's if you don't do your own valve adjustments.  In my case with the GS it's actually 4k miles, unfortunately I just don't have the time or inclination at this point to check them... so actually maint would be less for me.

[Alphamazing]

Being more expensive is relative to what bike you are comparing, and whether you do your own work or bring it to the dealer, based on the intervals that it NEEDS to be done (in Ducati's case 6k miles for most, 7.5k on the 695).  If you are comparing to say a Honda 599 (or any Honda sportbike) their adjustment check intervals are anywhere from 15-20k miles.  SV650 is 12k... so that's the extra expense on the Duc's if you don't do your own valve adjustments.  In my case with the GS it's actually 4k miles, unfortunately I just don't have the time or inclination at this point to check them... so actually maint would be less for me.

Checking valves on the GS for me takes a half hour from start to finish. Yes, it has to be done every 4000 miles, but it isn't a very maintenance intensive thing to do. Ducatis, on the other hand, require valve checks every 6k miles and it is a multi-hour procedure, even on the air cooled motors. Every 12k miles cam belts need to be replaced on top of checking the valves. This adds even MORE time to the procedure. A 6k mile service on an air cooled motor will run about $500, and a 12k miles service would be closer to $700. Liquid cooling adds to those prices.

[Johnny5]

Checking valves on the GS for me takes a half hour from start to finish. Yes, it has to be done every 4000 miles, but it isn't a very maintenance intensive thing to do. Ducatis, on the other hand, require valve checks every 6k miles and it is a multi-hour procedure, even on the air cooled motors. Every 12k miles cam belts need to be replaced on top of checking the valves. This adds even MORE time to the procedure. A 6k mile service on an air cooled motor will run about $500, and a 12k miles service would be closer to $700. Liquid cooling adds to those prices.

Yeah I watched Kerry's video, it doesn't look too bad to do on the GS. Clearly 2v air cooled valve springs are easiest! I just don't have the time desire to do my own, and it would take me WAY more than a half hour for sure LOL.  So I have to pay someone for valve adjusts either way.  I was comparing difficulty with the 4 valve water cooleds... SV, 599, etc.  It is more difficult to access the valves on these, there are 4v instead of 2 and the adjustment is just as difficult.  From what other Duc owners have told me the belt replace is $100 bucks, no biggie.

Hey no matter what you are not talking me out of a Monster!    

[debtman7]

Checking valves on the GS for me takes a half hour from start to finish. Yes, it has to be done every 4000 miles, but it isn't a very maintenance intensive thing to do. Ducatis, on the other hand, require valve checks every 6k miles and it is a multi-hour procedure, even on the air cooled motors. Every 12k miles cam belts need to be replaced on top of checking the valves. This adds even MORE time to the procedure. A 6k mile service on an air cooled motor will run about $500, and a 12k miles service would be closer to $700. Liquid cooling adds to those prices.

How do you figure multi hours? I can do my gs in 30 minutes too and I've looked up the procedure for the 2V air cooled ducatis and I can't see how it's any more difficult. First off the valve's seem easier to get at on the ducati's, secondly you need no special tool or fiddling with screwdrivers or loosening cams to get the shims out. The only thing I can see that's more complicated is that you have an opening and closing shim, so you have to check 2 instead of just one shim per valve. That does complicate it slightly, since there is a really tiny little two piece ring holding the closing shim in place that looks like a bit of a pain. But overall, I don't see it being any more time consuming or difficult than on the GS, especially since it has to be done less frequently.

Now on the liquid cooled 4V models it could be a real pain, and that's where the more frequent than japanese bike adjustment inverval would duck. But I gotta imagine that doing a valve adjustment on a 4-8 valve liquid coold I4 japanese bike would be extremely difficult as well...

This is all based on never actually having done the valve adjustment though, so I could be completely wrong

[Johnny5]

How do you figure multi hours? I can do my gs in 30 minutes too and I've looked up the procedure for the 2V air cooled ducatis and I can't see how it's any more difficult. First off the valve's seem easier to get at on the ducati's, secondly you need no special tool or fiddling with screwdrivers or loosening cams to get the shims out. The only thing I can see that's more complicated is that you have an opening and closing shim, so you have to check 2 instead of just one shim per valve. That does complicate it slightly, since there is a really tiny little two piece ring holding the closing shim in place that looks like a bit of a pain. But overall, I don't see it being any more time consuming or difficult than on the GS, especially since it has to be done less frequently.

Now on the liquid cooled 4V models it could be a real pain, and that's where the more frequent than japanese bike adjustment inverval would duck. But I gotta imagine that doing a valve adjustment on a 4-8 valve liquid coold I4 japanese bike would be extremely difficult as well...

This is all based on never actually having done the valve adjustment though, so I could be completely wrong

Debtman that's what I've heard from Duc owners.  The water cooled 4v Ducatis are a pain in the ass (also the 4v water cooled Japanese bikes), but the 2v air cooled are not bad at all.  Of course this is heresay from a few Duc owners, specifically one who has a '99 M750 and SV who does his own valves.  He also told me the belts are a simple replace, and that way to much is made of Ducati maintenance.  This is all based on reading and talking to owners, I have not ever done anything with valves other than watch Kerry's video, and some of the ProItalia Duc valve adjust video.

Anyway, the way I look at it is I maintain my stuff... Cars, Lawnmowers, etc.  Not a big deal for me either way, I'll be meticulous with any bike I have anyway.  For the amount I like the Ducs it doesn't bother me at all, even if it does end up costing slightly more to maintain.  As soon as I rode the 695 I was hooked, and after riding that 620 with the Termi's, ECU, and airbox I just cannot get it out of my head LOL... Ducati IS my next bike.  (Well, unless I get an absolute STEAL on an SV650 or 599 LOL)

[debtman7]

I imagine the valve check on any 4V liquid cooled bike is going to be a real pain I like my 2V air cooled engines...