a question for all ( with luck not in TF)

[PuddleJumper]

I think it would help if Lawmakers would read the constitution sometime.
There is no such thing as "separation of church and state" in the constitution.

The wording in the constitution limits what gov't can do when it comes to religion.
It does not say that there should be a separation.

In todays culture it has become popular to say that there is a separation so that religious rights can be limited. Remember, the limit is on the power of the gov't as it pertains to religion.

I don't have a problem with the Muslims having time to persue thier religious freedom.
Unfortunatly, I as a Christian have had some limits put on my right to persue the same freedom.

Unconstitutional?   If you look at the wording, Yes.
Good luck on getting things changed.

BeSafe.

[yamahonkawazuki]

well said sir. my point, sorry if i wasnt more succinct in my gripe,  , myself as a christian tought me to love and respect everyones opinion. including religion. i wont bore you with details, but the gist of it is this. no probs letting muslims pray. at all. my concern is, instead of alloting time where education would have been taking place, allow them to practice their religion and pray, during time when education is not taking place. but i see a flaw in that. if memory serves me, ( which it doesnt, it fails me sometimes  ), they have to pray at certain times. okay np re word teh time allotment, to i dunno a term which covers all religions and non religions. whoa man, sorry realised the length of my reply  worked almost 18 hours today. but grats so far on not tf'ing this

[ledfingers]

IRT "one nation under god"- it was added in 1954 by dwight eisenhower. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance#Addition_of_the_words_.22under_God.22

it hasn't been around long and i don't really think its necesary. just because this country was founded by christians doesn't mean it should remain christian. but that doesn't mean i'm quitting my job to lobby for it's removal. i don't care, i just think it doesn't have any point in being there.

[Onlypastrana199]

Mohawks lose lawsuit over blessing in school
Judge says Native American address could be seen as religious

By RICK KARLIN, Capitol bureau
Click byline for more stories by writer.
First published: Saturday, June 30, 2007

ALBANY -- A federal judge on Thursday dismissed a lawsuit by a group of Mohawk Indians who contended their local school district discriminated against them when officials there took a traditional Native American blessing off their public address system.

   
Officials at the Salmon River school district near Akwesasne in northern New York didn't remove the Thanksgiving Address from the district's public address system because it was Mohawk, nor could they be faulted for thinking the blessing could be akin to a prayer, ruled U.S. Northern District Court Judge Thomas McAvoy.

Lawyers for the school district said they felt vindicated.

"There was no evidence that the decision to move the address was intended to discriminate against Mohawk students," said Gregg Johnson, the Albany lawyer hired by the district after it was sued in 2005.

The Mohawks' lawyer, though, said he was disappointed.

"The plaintiffs are going to discuss an appeal and they will decide whether to go ahead," said Yoav Griner, the Manhattan-based lawyer representing the half-dozen American Indians who sued in 2005. "Right now, the main thing is disappointment."

The affair started when a school board member on the Salmon River district asked whether the traditional Thanksgiving Address, which was given twice weekly, could be viewed as a prayer and therefore shouldn't be carried over the PA system.

Lawyers told district officials it could be considered religious, and the district stopped reciting the address over the speakers.

Mohawk people recite the blessing before important gatherings. The district serves about 2,100 students, more than two-thirds of whom are of Mohawk descent. Some of the Mohawk students and their parents said the address wasn't a prayer in the European sense and the board jumped to conclusions based on incomplete research.

In a compromise, the district allowed students to go to the auditorium before school on Monday and afterward on Friday and recite the address, Gregg said.

The address is an ancient blessing in which participants acknowledge natural forces such as sunlight and water, as well as wildlife, for helping to support human existence.

As the dispute went to court, some Mohawk students and parents had said the affair dredged up memories of how American Indians years ago had been mistreated and prohibited from speaking their native tongue. The dispute, they said, also reflected the different worldviews of the predominantly white, Christian society and that of the Mohawks.

For example, the school board contended that a reference to the "Creator" in the Thanksgiving Address could be interpreted as a reference to God, while Mohawks say it's a recognition of the creative force of nature.

Students at one point protested the move and said they would ask that the Pledge of Allegiance be removed from the school day, although it's unclear whether that actually happened. Lawyers weren't sure on that point, and plaintiffs in the case could not be reached Friday.

Karlin can be reached at 454-5758 or by e-mail at rkarlin@timesunion.com.

Here's a case where they aren't allowed to have private schools. Its illegal for my reservation to have a private school on the reservation and teach solely based on their beliefs despite the fact that many of the teachers at Salmon River are from the reservation. The Thanksgiving Address does not mention "GOD" anywhere..its a problem with the english translation. Mostly its to remind young people to respect where they came from and take care of the earth..something I don't think would hurt any of today's youth. but simply because it could be perceived as religious, its out.

I went to that school for a year...most of the graduates of Salmon River can't read..and if they can its not beyond an 8th grade level..maybe they should focus on making the school better.. 

[CasiUSA]

I don't have a problem with the Muslims having time to persue thier religious freedom.
Unfortunatly, I as a Christian have had some limits put on my right to persue the same freedom.

I'm just curious where you have limits put on you as a Christian to worship god- I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'm actually interested to see where you believe those limits have been imposed on you.

See, I don't think that in the case Yama pointed out there is any discrimination going on. The school is simply letting the kids pray when their religion requires it. Simple as that. Like I said, if Christianity required a daily 11am Prayer, I don't think the school would be denying Christians that.There are no school funds being used to pay for it, and no one's tax dollars are paying for it. It is simply letting people freely worship at a time that their religion requires. I don't understand the controversy here.
Like I asked, can anyone Justify the Christmas argument? No other religion gets that much time off (Government Holiday, schools closed, etc) surrounding a religion-specific holiday.

[jserio]

religion in schools and prayer in schools will always be a strong topic for debate. has been for a long time. i'm not sure what started it but i'm sure that my grandparents really didn't have to worry bout it as much as us younger people. (i'm just a few months shy of 26).  when i was younger however and still in school, things were a little lax in some areas. i have read articles that have fired teachers for mentioning religious things. when history comes around, and we talk about Christmas in school, we aren't allowed to discuss the real reason we celebrate Christmas becuase it may offend someone. a Catholic school teacher was fired recently because she's unmarried and got pregnant. haven't heard the ACLU up in arms about this. i don't see the problem with setting asided time for kids to pray.  but our tax money does pay for kids to be in school from certain said times to certain other times of the day. (8am-3pm??) and if the allotted prayer time is during normal school hours, then yes, i think our tax money pays for that. i think as a country we've gotten a little soft. we seem to be bending our backs more and more, just so one group isn't offended. we have a huge problem with illegal immigration in this country as well as many others. and yet we bicker about whether or not prayer should be allowed in school? maybe today's youth could use a little more prayer.

[bettingpython]

Prayer in schools, amazing this hasn't been tarded let me see if I can help.

Ok seriously I work for a school district, many of my co workers attend church regularly. When we have pot luck meals I feel bad for these people that it is not acceptable for someone to say grace. I have never been really religious, but a moment of courtesy to allow those who believe to say a prayer doesn't bother me.

Prayer should be allowed in school, for individuals and like minded groups of individuals. I am all for freedom of choice and religion is a choice

More later I need to go to lunch.

[trumpetguy]

There has been prayer in school as long as there has been exams

Seriously, the issue with prayer in schools is not whether it is allowed (it is), but whether it can be imposed.  For example, a child choosing to pray before lunch is allowed to, but a school reading a lunch prayer over the PA is not.

[CasiUSA]

Seriously, the issue with prayer in schools is not whether it is allowed (it is), but whether it can be imposed.  For example, a child choosing to pray before lunch is allowed to, but a school reading a lunch prayer over the PA is not.

Pretty much sums it up

[RVertigo]

our nation was founded by Christian, God fearing men.

Thomas Jefferson:  Deist
Benjamin Franklin:  Deist (Attacked Christianity in "A Dissertation on Liberty and Necessity, Pleasure and Pain")
Alexander Hamilton:  Raised Presbyterian, non-practicing (and known to make "blasphemus" comments).  Converted to Episcopalian after 1801
John Adams:  Unitarian (often spoke in Deist terms.  He did not believe in the divinity of Christ or that God intervened in the affairs of individuals.)
Thomas Paine:  Deist  (Wrote "The Age of Reason" which advocated deism and took issue with Christian doctrines.)
George Washington:  Deist/Christian? "Historians and biographers continue to debate the degree to which he can be counted as a Christian, and the degree to which he was a deist."
John Jay:  Protestant?  (Jay argued for a prohibition against Catholics holding office.)



I can add more later...  I'm tired of looking up names...  I mean...  There are 55 of those old bastards.   

[bettingpython]

No this issue is allowance in some places. There have been school districts that have had to ban the football team from saying a prayer before a game. This was after coaches were prohibited from leading the team in a prayer. Players took it upon themselves to gather and say a prayer and were told they must stop as it was on school property and at a school function. My position is and always will be that if it is voluntary and initiated by a student it should be allowed.

[RVertigo]

Freedom of Religion, Freedom from Religion, and the separation of Religion and Government all boil down to one idea:  Religion (specific or non specific) should not be forced upon or taken away from anyone...  That is religious freedom.

So...  Are the students being forced to pray or being allowed to pray?  You can't stop someone from praying, but you can stop the Government (including publicly funded organizations) from organizing a prayer. 

[spc]

+1 to what Rvert said

[trumpetguy]

But is it REALLY optional or is there peer pressure involved?  My son's HS basketball team prayed to Jesus before games.  My son told me his Muslim friend (who was also on the team) was afraid to complain, and didn't want to feel different, so he listened.  Certainly didn't injure the boy, but how many of the other kids felt the same way and were silent?

Why the need to pray as a group?  Is it to demonstrate to others how "holy" we are?  Jesus himself said to go into your closet to pray (in other words, it's between you and the guy upstairs, not everyone else).

[CasiUSA]

Also +1 for RVert
Pray in a group because it's your right as an American. As long as you are not infringing on anyone else directly, then I say go for it. I don't think the school basketball team should have done that. It is a school funded and sanctioned organization. If the players wanted to pray together before the game on their own accord, that would have been fine. The school, however, should not be involved.