Riding Technique: Braking in Turns?

[beRto]

Hi, I know that braking during a turn reduces traction and should be avoided.  My question is, what do you do when you're going down a steep hill (canyon riding, for example)?  Seems to me that in this case you must brake and turn at the same time; how do you do it safely?

[CanadianRider]

Better answers will follow, but the short answer is - back brake only.  This brake generally has the effect of stabilizing the bike.  Front brake in a turn is a quick way to bite bitumen....

Better option - drop a gear lower than usual on approach, so engine holds you at reasonable speed as you go in.  However I have used gentle application of back brake on these corners (gentle being key word - no slamming it on) with success.

[dgyver]

I usually stay in a lower gear to keep the rpms up and use the engine to help control my speed. It does take some throttle control. Braking in turns not all bad if done with control but this comes with experience.

[RichDesmond]

Better answers will follow, but the short answer is - back brake only.  This brake generally has the effect of stabilizing the bike.  Front brake in a turn is a quick way to bite bitumen....

Better option - drop a gear lower than usual on approach, so engine holds you at reasonable speed as you go in.  However I have used gentle application of back brake on these corners (gentle being key word - no slamming it on) with success.

Sorry, but this is terrible advice. Rear brake in a hard corner is the shortest route to the ER. You will do much beter using the front brake.
The trick is to realize that you have a certain amount of total traction available. If you're on the brakes extremly hard you have no extra traction available to turn. Conversely, if you're cornering at max lean, then there's no traction left to brake. In between, you can trade one for the other. In the car world they call this the "friction circle", it's essentially a vector plot were the sum of the forces equals a constant.
If you're needing to brake while turning you've got most of the weight up front, so that's where your traction is. There's very little on the rear, so it's going to get very touchy and easy to lock up. If you lock it while you have any significant lean angle, you're done.
As practical matter, on the street it's best to get your braking done and your corner speed set BEFORE you enter the turn.

[Jarrett]

I usually stay in a lower gear to keep the rpms up and use the engine to help control my speed. It does take some throttle control. Braking in turns not all bad if done with control but this comes with experience.

+1 However, get all your braking done before the turn.  Period.  If you find yourself in a situation where you need to brake while turning, try to get on the brakes in the middle of the double apex.  At that point, you can straighten the bike and get on the brakes before you hit the second apex.

I try and use double apex on the street where applicable.  Especially on suspect tires.

[510]

According to MSF, when you _have_ to brake in a turn, square the handlebars first.

Not sure that's a great idea in practice. A possible lowside sounds marginally better than running off the side of a hill.

[CanadianRider]

Rich, always happy to learn.  My post based on information from a fair number of other sources, including very experienced riders, borne out by my own experiences.  Could you clarify the traction bit?  I would have thought that with weight on the front tire (from which I gather we are talking diving into the corner, not accellarating out), the last thing you would want to do, on an angle, was use the front brake and mess with the traction you do have, but rather to pull some of the traction back onto the back wheel so you were less likely to go down as you slowed....  Interested in your thoughts.  I have always been told that while you can cautiously use the front brake, using it firmly is the one way trip to the ER!

[Kasumi]

As most have said i've always been taught and heard that if you should ever need to brake in a turn (which you shouldn't) then use the back brake only and use it gently! Don't ever use the front brake in a turn thats suicidal.

[Affschnozel]

More lean angle=less brake power and vice versa

This is a well known technique of hanging off , I love it especially on rainy days:

If you need to brake mid turn , decrease lean angle by hanging your butt off the seat to the inside of corner ,you  become a kind of pendulum 

that way you stand the bike up and increase the tire's contact surface with the road ,thus more braking power available to you 

[ecpreston]

Braking into a turn is a pretty normal thing, for both smooth street riding and on track. Front brake is safest to use, I also keep just a touch of pressure on the rear. All I can recommend is practicing it on your favorite downhill section. Just stay on the brakes a little bit as you're turning in, drag it in later and later as you get used to it.

Take it slow, do the same section over and over and take little bites each time. As long as you aren't using 100% of your traction for cornering (see friction circle mentioned above), and you SHOULDN'T be using 100% of anything on the street, then you should have a little braking capability left, both front and rear. Once you get used to it, you'll find turn in to be EASIER and smoother because you aren't unloading the front by getting off the brakes, then loading it again when you turn in.

[Kasumi]

I disagree, on the track you should be hard hard on the brakes 90% of braking is done here using front and back brake (more front and less rear), keep braking braking as you start to lean in you should be feeding off the brakes as lean increases then by the time your into the corner there should be no braking then when you see the vanishing point move away you bring the power on more and more watching the vanishing point until your out of the corner. You shouldn't be braking into a corner the engine should do the only braking through a corner.

[beRto]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the helpful and useful replies.  Unfortunately, I don't think I made myself clear.  It seems like most of the discussion centred around cornering in turns, and the general consensus was that braking in the turn should be avoided (but if absolutely necessary use the rear brake).

I was more interested in the case where braking is required. For example, a long and steep hill ending with a big curve at a stop sign. Even with engine braking you will need to use the brake to come to a complete stop. You shouldn't downshift or brake in the turn... what do you do?

[dgyver]

Braking in a turn is fine....Over braking in a turn is bad.

I see too many people post that any braking in a turn is bad and they are wrong. You CAN brake in turn. It is the excessive braking that should be avoided, especially in sharper turns until you become more experienced. 

[DrtRydr23]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for the helpful and useful replies.  Unfortunately, I don't think I made myself clear.  It seems like most of the discussion centred around cornering in turns, and the general consensus was that braking in the turn should be avoided (but if absolutely necessary use the rear brake).

I was more interested in the case where braking is required. For example, a long and steep hill ending with a big curve at a stop sign. Even with engine braking you will need to use the brake to come to a complete stop. You shouldn't downshift or brake in the turn... what do you do?

It depends on the speed at which you are approaching the stop sign, and the angle of the lean needed.  Ideally, you'd be slowing or attempting to slow down while traveling down the hill, and looking far enough ahead that you'd see the stop sign and reduce your speed even more accordingly.  If you are going too fast, hanging off to decrease the lean angle before breaking is an option, but is difficult to do if already mid-lean.  If it comes down to breaking or running off into an intersection, I'd say apply both breaks lightly while standiing the bike up.  As your speed decreases, you will need less lean angle to maintain your path of travel.  While you are doing this, hope that you don't crash and try to plan better next time.  Personally I break while turning all the time, but never at a lean angle that would create a serious danger of lowsiding or sliding out.

[toyopete]

Hi, I know that braking during a turn reduces traction and should be avoided.  My question is, what do you do when you're going down a steep hill (canyon riding, for example)?  Seems to me that in this case you must brake and turn at the same time; how do you do it safely?

Hello Friend, all of these advices contain a lot of experience, but most of the  motorcycle accidents in corners/curves are braking errors, front but mostly back braking. I would take the curve as it is and lean as far as necesary, if the road is in good condition its unlikely you will slipp away ( taking your tires are in exelent condition and your tire pressure is right ) as soon as the bike is upright give it all you have safely...
I know this might be not the answer your looking for but you started an interesting lead, very good

[CndnMax]

wouldn't engine braking and slight rear braking be close to the same thing since both are slowing down the rear wheel? I've read many people say front brake only, and others say rear brake only when turning. From my experience, which is very little  , the front brake seems to make the bike want to go upright while the rear brake seems to push down the bike a bit. I've used rear brake for down hill turns and it works quite nice, i would never want to use front brake in a down hill turn and load the front tire with too much weight and causing it to wash out. If im wrong please correct me 

[scratch]

Dgyver nailed it on the head.  I'll add some: If you have to brake while already in a turn, apply the brakes gently and smoothly; abrupt braking is what will upset the bike.

For prevention search the word "downhill" with my username.

[frankieG]

i agree

[CanadianRider]

Scratch said: "Dgyver nailed it on the head.  I'll add some: If you have to brake while already in a turn, apply the brakes gently and smoothly; abrupt braking is what will upset the bike."

Agreed - but which brake!  There has to be some physics underlying this, not just opinion... now I'm confused.... so far if I have to use front brake (I came across exactly the same corner that was proceeding nicely around a grassy knoll then came to a stop sign) I try to stand the bike up, but if , for instance, I'm going into a downhill turn and feeling uncomfortable, or avoiding the latest suicidal squirrel, I have been using back brake. 

Is the caution against front brake because newbies (me) will tend to grab at it so it's better to keep the likes of me away from it?!!

This is a great thread, enjoying everyone's answers.

[jserio]

my MSF instructor told us that we should avoid braking in turns unless absolutely necessarey. I.E- something in the road etc. he told us our best bet to maintain our skin in such a situation would be to pull the bike upright and then brake. he was brave. he'd stand in our line of travel and tell us to stop as close to him as possible.