Swap or rebuild? Seized '04 and a "mostsly" working '89 - Help me in San Diego

[Sprezzaturan]

I am the very proud owner of two GS500's right now. One 1989 GS500E that has a decent running engine, but it has been through a lot, and one 2004 GS500F in great shape except for a seized engine. I need some help weighing my options:

Option #1: - Engine Swap
The '89 has been dropped a couple times, could use a few non-engine related repairs and some TLC in general but it runs. The '04 is seized due to a botched maintainece schedule. I would like to have one working motorcycle and from what I've read in the threads I've been able to find here it would be possible to put the '89 motor in the '04 with a few but not THAT many headaches. The front plastics have all already been removed from the '04 so the oil cooler shouldn't be an issue and then my biggest hurdles (please correct me if I'm wrong) are the tach and various carb electrical differences. I'm mechanically inclined, have a decent amount of tools, access to these threads, a garage to work in and no significant time constraints. An engine swap is one of my options.

Option #2: - Rebuild the '04
I bought the bike in this condition and nothing has been done to diagnose the damage or even attempt to free the pistons with penetrating oil and a 6th gear popstart. Although I am mechanically inclined, I am not mechanically educated. Boring out an engine is a process I'm familiar with the existence of, but not a service that I've ever had to commission for one of my own vehicles. I have no idea how to take an engine apart to the point where it would be ready to have machined. All I have is a Clymer that spans through '02 and, like I said above, plenty of spare time and workspace. I believe that an engine rebuild is one of my options.

What is my best option? How long would the process of removing, dismantleing, diagnosing and fixing the seized motor likely be vs. swapping the two engines in the face of the known '89-04 differences? Most importantly, which option gets me the most reliable engine in the long run? Is a fomerly seized but newly repaired '04 engine in better shape than an engine that's seen almost twenty years of action but still gets the job done? I'm excited for a good project and I'm expecting to need help with either path I choose. Anybody in the San Diego area that can help out that needs any spare parts not relevant to the task at hand would be more than entitled. What can we do to help each other out? The only thing I care about is the headlight cover from the '89, you can have any other parts... including the Corbin seat.

This is the '89 500E                This is the '04 500F

'89 Engine (drop damage)      Close up

'04 Engine R-Side                  '04 Engine L-Side

Any advice anybody has for me on what my best choice here would be greatly appriciated. Anyone local that could potentially help out is absolutely welcome to contact me here. I've never been a member of a message board before, but I'm no stranger to the internet and I expect to understand the use of PMs soon enough. I'll be checking back often and will continue to post updates with pictures of the project as it gets underway hopefully for future wrenchers' reference.

- Ethan

[Jay_wolf]

Did u buy the 04 from a Fellow on this site, because he mentioned the new buyer was going to put a 89 engine in it

[Sprezzaturan]

Did u buy the 04 from a Fellow on this site, because he mentioned the new buyer was going to put a 89 engine in it

He was actually the one that clued me into this site. I have had the '89 in and out of working order since I got it this past summer and I actually came accross the '04 on Craigslist. It was only 3 miles from me so I checked it out, came home, did some research on the possibility of the swap, called him back and made an offer. Thanks to my available storage and spare time I saw no really awful worst case scenario. The way I see it, in the very WORST situation I could part the '89 out over a painstaking period of time to gain fundamental/relevant experience in the GS500's disassembly while simutaneously funding the '04 repair.

[Affschnozel]

Do you know how the engine on '04 got seized exactly? 

[The Buddha]

Yes, some seized motors can be rebuilt without any dire consequences. I had a Savage with a broken exhuast valve. Easy rebuild if you can clean up the cylinder wall. But heat is a terrible thing, and metal has a memory, you run low on oil and over heat the bottom end, it will be a painful bike even after a rebuild.
Cool.
Srinath.

[gsJack]

My 02 GS had a broken exhaust valve that locked up the engine like on Srinath's Savage.  It was easy to fix pulling the head with engine in frame and replacing the valve and the bucket that caused it.  Bike had 21k miles on it when valve broke and now has about 57k miles and never ran better.

If pistons are seized or bottom end is damaged it's a bigger problem.  Try removing the little cover over the signal generator on the right end of the crank and put a wrench to it to see if you can move it back or forth a bit to determine if it's actually seized up by heat or just locked up by a broken part.  I could see the broken valve looking thru the sparkplug hole with a flashlight.

[Sprezzaturan]

Do you know how the engine on '04 got seized exactly? 

The bike seized up on the highway. The rear tire had <200 miles on it when it happened and you can see the missing tread where the wheel locked up at 60mph. The former owner is an avid cyclist and believes he simply forgot to get his oil change.

[bergj1986]

Something tells me you weren't getting the whole story when the previous owner told you the engine seized because of a lack of oil change.  I previous owned a 1982 Honda V45 Sabre 750 that had MANY known engine problems.  I found a website where someone wanted to find out if changing your oil every 3k-5k miles is necessary.  He took a bone stock Sabre and rode it for over 75k miles with the original Honda oil in the engine and everything else.  The engine was torn down at 75k to see how it did; very little to no wear on all moving parts

Now I don't know if this is due to Honda oil being that amazing, or that oil changes  every 3k-5k miles is that important.  I seriously doubt that an engine will seize if the oil isn't changed in such intervals.  Yes it's true that during break-in that oil changes are more important to remove metal shavings from the oil, but after about 10k miles, they become less important.

Something tells me the real story is the bike ran LOW on oil (possibly from a leak) and then seized from excessive heat.  Another possibility is the guy beating on the bike, and due to the already lean mixture, the engine seized due to excessive heat.  Another possibility is the owner put in an oil that was way too heavy (gear oil) and then seized the bike.  I have heard of a Mercedes Benz owner that did an oil change and used gear oil instead of motor oil (engine seized very soon thereafter)

I would take the engine apart on the 04 and see what you can find.  I'd take the cylinder head off and see what you can find.  Look for broken valves, loose or broken timing chain, metal shavings, basically anything that looks out of the ordinary.  I'd also drain the oil out of the bike and see what condition it's in (again, check for metal shavings).

Another option is to take the side covers off the bike and see if there is any crankshaft play both in and out and up and down.  If there is any, you know the bearings are shot and most likely the seals are too.  Also check the spark plugs when you remove them, make sure the electrode is on the end of the plug and not sitting somewhere in the engine.  Also, if you don't know how to read spark plugs, look it up online and compare the pictures to your plugs.  Something tells me you're going to find the bike was running lean before it seized.

I've taken apart and rebuilt a few engines in my time, so this is just some of what I've learned.  Because your bike seized and you don't know why, you have to play detective and figure out the real story.  Taking apart an engine is a great way to learn how it works and what trouble signs to look for.  PM me if you need any help.  In your post you didn't say where you're located, I'm in Boston.

-Josh

[gsJack]

Do you know how the engine on '04 got seized exactly? 

The bike seized up on the highway. The rear tire had <200 miles on it when it happened and you can see the missing tread where the wheel locked up at 60mph. The former owner is an avid cyclist and believes he simply forgot to get his oil change.

Something tells me you weren't getting the whole story when the previous owner told you the engine seized because of a lack of oil change. 

Could do that downshifting to 1st and slamming the clutch out at 60 mph.  Maybe it's 4 broken valves.   

[Sprezzaturan]

I've taken apart and rebuilt a few engines in my time, so this is just some of what I've learned.  Because your bike seized and you don't know why, you have to play detective and figure out the real story.  Taking apart an engine is a great way to learn how it works and what trouble signs to look for.  PM me if you need any help.  In your post you didn't say where you're located, I'm in Boston.

-Josh

I'm in San Diego right now, formerly of Boston though. Thank you for the starting points... seems like there are quite a few possibilities for the engine's current state. I'll keep my fingers crossed but my hopes in check for a non-catastrophic cause. I have this Friday off and it looks like it is shaping up to be a greasy one. I'm sure I'll have a question or two for ya by the end.

[bergj1986]

I think the only way you're going to get lucky is if the pistons are only slightly seized into the cylinders.  Depending on the condition of the rest of the engine, you might be able to get away with just honing the cylinders and buying oversized pistons and rings.  The only seize I've ever heard of that wasnt totally catastrophic was a bike left outside just long enough for the oil in the cylinder to harden, which made the rings stick to the cylinder.  Once the bond was broken, the engine ran fine.

[The Buddha]

Valve break = top end job = easy. All else = PITA and $$$ ... swap is better in all cases, then rebuild the busted one if you care, else part it out and make a bunch of us very happy.
Cool.
Srinath.

[ohgood]

I've seen oil drain out that was blacker than black. Known people that only 'added' oil for 50,000 miles. Their cars didn't smoke, knock, hesitate, etc. The oil was free of metal shavings. One old friend said "I've never looked under my truck. When the light comes on, I add oil. Getting under it is something I ain't ******* doing!" He drove it for 4-5 years, then traded it in.

Personally, I don't have that kind of luck. I change religiously.

Either way you've got a good engine and a parts bike after you're all done. Good luck with the discovery wrenching this weekend. You may just end up with TWO bikes !

[dgyver]

You will only know what happened inside once the motor is opened up. Lack of oil will burn a bearing (rod bearings go first). The extra heat will swell the aluminum pistons until one gets stuck. The motor will still turn in most any situation except for a stuck piston. Even with a broken valve, the motor it will still turn, even if backwards by manual input.

Air cooled motors burn more oil than water cooled.

[Sprezzaturan]

Thank you all so much for the help so far. I'll be rolling up the sleeves tomorrow and attacking this thing with everything I've got. I'll be keeping notes and taking pictures. By tomorrow night I should have the pics online here. Keep your eye out for the guy in them scratching his head... that'll be me.

[drkslayer]

a point of advice...

I'm currently rebuilding 1 of my 2 gs's... hehehe the first I #$%^ed up taking it apart do to lack of appropriate tools, things like pullers...

follow your manual, and get the right tools... things may take awhile, but keep going... when you start that baby for the first time, its a sense of accomplishment bested by none...

cheers

[bergj1986]

There is no better feeling than finishing a project and having the engine fire up on the first try with no leaks, ticks, or explosions (external ones anyway)

[TarzanBoy]

I am in an almost identical situation and was fed an almost identical story on the 2005 GS500 that I bought.

I did a cursory inspection of the engine yesterday and have only been able to tell that at some point oil leaked out of the head (where the cams are) over the fins on the motor.

Debating whether to keep playing detective or just replace the block entirely.

-kevin

[notjohndavid]

I'm in San Diego (point loma/mission valley) if you need an extra hand to wrench or help lift stuff

edit: i see this was from Janurary... probably already finished but still... if you need help just let me know

[Juan1]

I bought Sprezzaturan's '89.  Sprezzaturan moved to Los Angeles after completing an engine swap on his '04.