OT: The most incredible film I have ever seen.

[acoustimate]

Without getting into a huge discussion of who's better than whom and why...A few quick points:

Someone made the comment above that access to guns is supposed to protect the US citizens from the goverment. Maybe that was the hope 200 years ago. Do you actually think having public access to hand guns is going to have any influence on a government that controls a military that is several times more powerful than the rest of the world's combined? Access to hand guns only breeds violent death.

Please keep up...the previous quote should be that "the bill of rights defends people from the government."  To selectively read that as "access to guns" makes for a very convenient, but fallible argument on your part.  

I always think what an alien would think of the US from watching their movies...

Um, do you really?  What a curious preoccupation...

[zoltan]

Canada is unfortunately too close to the US, and we have a lot of influence from the media and trade.

The murder rate in Canadian cities is about 1/10 that in comparable cities in the US. It is partly the US gun culture allowing easy access to hand guns. Humans are rational only a very small percentage of their waking hours. Allowing easy access to a device that can kill as easily as a hand gun will result in a high murder rate....so on and so forth...

i'll hate myself in the morning for getting drawn into this, but this post was too outragious not to answer.

the murder rate of canada is holding steady at 1.8/100,000 and the US peak murder rate was 11/100,000 in 1980 (and has been declining since). now, if i did my math correctly, at the peak of murders in the US Canada would still only have a murder 6 times less than the US. so, um, what order "facts" did you make up? how about that the US leads the world in violent crimes? the US actually placed 12th in the catagory. 1st place went to South Africa, followed by the United Kingdom with their total gun ban, then New Zealand, Luxembourg, Canada, Australia, Sweden, Austria, Belgium and Finland. So Canada, actually, has more violent crime per capita than the US. How about we look at all crime per capita? the US came in 17th on this list. First place went to Sweden, followed by New Zealand, the United Kingdom, Denmark, Belgium, Germany, Canada, the Netherlands, Finland and Norway. Interesting how Canada again beat the US in all crimes per capita. In fact, the only catagory in which Canada leads us in is murder per capita. In that list the US comes in 3rd with 5.63/100,000 while Canada comes in at 10th with 1.8/100,000. It should also be noted that the murder rate in the US has been on a steady decline since the early 80's. looking at statistics like that, i'm not sure Canada is a place i'd like to live.

see? now you've run into the same problem michael moore ran into. you lied and said something was true when it wasn't, now why should we believe anything else you said?

i'll repeat once more, the cure isn't more laws and less freedoms, it's personal responsability. it's knowing and accepting the consequences of your actions. it's what we scream for when we hear another car ran a red light and killed a biker. no scapegoats, no hiding behind "humans are rational only a very small percentage of their waking hours". less stupidity and more responsability.


Statistics 2001 (only year i could find complete)
Toronto - 61 murders - pop 2,481,000    murder rate = 2.45/100,000
Los Angeles - 240 murders - pop 3,554,000   murder rate = 6.75/100,000

therefore los angeles has a murder rate 2.75 times greater than toronto. not even close to 10 times as great.



if you look at the statistics, the US had a murder rate of 5.63/100,000 versus Canada's of 1.8/100,000, thus the US' is 3.13 times greater.

[KevinC]

The 1/10th number is for comparable US/Canadian cities, as I stated.

The survey that you are refering to is the International Crime Victims Survey, which cover 11 crimes including bicycle theft, automobile vandalism, etc.

http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publications/pdf_files/key2000i/app4.pdf

The murder rate in Canada has also been falling. The rate, other things being equal, is related to the proportion of the population that are males between the ages of 16 and 30, since this is the demographic group that commits most violent crime. With the aging of the baby boomer in North America, this proportion of the population is falling in Canada and the US. So overall I believe the murder rate in the uS is probably still near 6x the overall Canadian rate.

[Laura]

I'm probably going to regret being drawn into this as well, especially since I haven't even seen the movie yet.

I agree that there are many, many problems in the U.S., one of them being violent crime. The violence on televison and movies disturbs me, and I find it hard to believe that kids who watch that stuff day in and day out aren't negatively affected.  Whatever the crime figures are, it would be nice if they were lower. I just don't believe banning guns would lower crime rates. If there is a demand for guns, illegal or not, there is going to be a supply. If somebody wants a gun in order to kill someone or rob a store, they will find a handgun whether they are legal or not. Just like if people want illegal drugs, they will get them. A gun ban may keep the law abiding store owner from having a gun, it's not going to stop anyone who is planning to commit a crime.

And while the U.S. may be the richest country in the world, I think that other countries are catching up. It's not like most of us our rolling in the dough here. I wish the economy was at a point where parents could spend more time parenting their kids. It used to be that families could make it with one parent working one full-time job. In almost every family I know, both parents work full time jobs. Of course some of them probably don't HAVE to, they do it so they can have a bigger house and nicer cars, but most people I know have to. (And I'm not saying it's not possible to do a good job raising kids this way, I'm just saying it is much more difficult.) I think if parents had more time to spend with their kids and to teach them responsibility instead of expecting schools to do it, we would have much less crime.

That being said, I'm still glad I live in the United States. We still have more freedoms here than any other country I know of, and I hope that we can improve some our problems- hopefully by figuring out what the root of the problem is, and not by making laws that restrict freedoms and just address the symptoms of deeper, underlying problems.

[The Buddha]

Well LA is right about the worst city for Crime in the US, it is much much worse than Toronto I have to say...size/population alone is not enough of a comparison...I know the population is close and I have been in both cities reasonably close to each other in recent times...Oct 99 in TO, and Jan 00 in LA...and Dammit LA is more crowded as well...by a huge margin...I guess stats lie about such things...oh my god Statistics lied...
Anyway Canada's huge welfare based society (more like europe than US) have made sure the Unemployed/Homeless/other dont neccesarily have to turn to crime. In the US especially LA the high number of un documented residents predominantly have to turn to crime due to the lower benifits handed out free by the govt.
Cool.
Srinath.

[dmp221]

It all comes down to personal responsibility, and individual character.  As far as placing any legitimacy in fantasy films purporting to be documentaries, I go with Marvin Gaye's take (some of you kids may not know who Marvin Gaye was)..."believe half of what you read, none of what you hear"--- "I heard it through the grapevine"

[Cris]

(some of you kids may not know who Marvin Gaye was)...

   

[dmp221]

OK OK... didn't mean to insult anyone's musical knowledge...it's just that I've dropped the names of some older musicians amongst younger folk and have sometimes gotten blank looks.  Glad you know a nd appreciate the "classics"!!

[scratch]

Did this "documentery" mention all of the progressive social reforms they were attempting at the school? Such as classes on developing indiviual morality? This kids were doing just as they were taught. They were forming a set of morals that satisfied them without regard for the rest of the worlds. condition.

Or consequences?

KevinC posted:

The US people generally seem to be so convinced that they have the greatest country in the world, they are not keen to accept any criticism. Having the highest infant mortality rates of any developed country, the highest incarceration rates, the highest violent crime rates, the lowest % of people with acceptable health care, huge areas of cities that are off-limit ghettos, the highest income disparity that results in a large poor population in such a rich country, the wastefulness, militarism and many other factors makes it look like a culture in crisis to me.

It is very scary that the US has such a dominant military and the need to bend the world to it's resource needs to fuel this aggressive, wastefull violent culture.

So did the Romans think of themselves. The Roman Empire lasted roughly 200 years before it began to deteriorate. Morally. America has lasted over 225 years. We need to watch ourselves.

[scratch]

It all comes down to personal responsibility, and individual character.  As far as placing any legitimacy in fantasy films purporting to be documentaries, I go with Marvin Gaye's take (some of you kids may not know who Marvin Gaye was)..."believe half of what you read, none of what you hear"--- "I heard it through the grapevine"

I thought it was believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see? Oh well, just as applicable... :mrgreen:

Citizen Kane... or Black Hawk Down

Sorry if that's off topic for the topic   , but the question was what's the most fantastic film, or something like that?!

Thomas Jefferson just quoted John Locke when he wrote the declaration of independence (The first few lines anyway!). Good speach though, still at the core of rights today.

Stay Safe  

[Zarathustra]

scratch don't be selling the romans short.  they were around way longer than two hundred years.  if you're not counting the republic, or the eastern empire after the fall of the west, the empire began around 31bc and spanned to 476 AD.  we havn't quite caught up to the Romans yet...

[Piper5177]

I said the most relevent documentary, not the most truthful.  There is alot more in there than just gun control.  Capitalist society is not the kindest or most gentle in the world by far.  It is ruled by money and greed, two things that also help the deterioration of a society.  Michael Moore's work may be skewed to what he wants to say, but so is every statement you will ever hear in your lifetime.  I think it is awesome when somebody with mainstream exposure makes an educated statement against the majority like he did.  Don't confuse this with the bullshit spewed out by actors and musicians who just repeat something they heard.

[Delta88]

Add my name to the list of people who will probably be sorry they weighed in here but I have to get in my $.02 before this whole thread gets nuked...
....First of all, it takes two incomes to make ends meet because of the repressive, confiscatory tax rates we face today. Most working wives/moms do so simply to pay a family's tax bill. On average, if you get to actually keep more than about 55% of what you earn, you are in the minority.
  Secondly, NOTHING the Government "hands out" is free. It's paid for by the men and women in this great Nation who get up and go to work every day because they ARE taking responsibility for themselves - their choices, their actions and their existence. The Government doesn't have it's own money to dole out out of it's benevolence. I think most people are more concerned with the $1.50 ATM fees than with the rediculous amounts of money that are "lifted" from their paychecks every month. I wish I could change the tax laws so that taxes were no longer deducted from payroll but everybody had to write a check every month or quarter for their tax bill. Then we'd see some changes.
 Thirdly, what does any of this have to do with GS's?

[DavidGS]

When I watch European, Mexican, South American or Canadian movies, they are mostly about the human experience, and generally have every little violence or shooting. I always think what an alien would think of the US from watching their movies...

Yes, El Mariachi, Mi Familia, and Blood In, Blood Out (all well-known Mexican movies), are very peaceful and non-violent productions. They definately don't have any gun-related violence....
Do you even want for me to go into Chinese, Korean, German, or French movies?

For the others. Do some economic and social studies before you form an opinion. Start with the formation of Hitler's socialist utopia, Germany. You might just find that it is more similar to the US and Canada then you would think.

[Laura]

Sorry, I didn't know I had to be an expert in economics and sociology and film studies and cultural studies in order to have an opinion. Maybe I shouldn't even be voting! And I'm sure none of us cretins can think of three well-known American movies that aren't violent. (Oh wait, I thought I agreed that there is too much violence in the American media. Hmmm... Maybe I just didn't like the tone.)

See, I knew I was going to regret being drawn into this discussion.

[JohnNS]

... I go with Marvin Gaye's take (some of you kids may not know who Marvin Gaye was)..."believe half of what you read, none of what you hear"--- "I heard it through the grapevine"

Wasn't he shot to death?

Sorry, couldn't resist  

No disrespect intended. He was absolutely brilliant, and what a voice!

John

[Seth]

The Roman empire on the whole from start to finish lasted about 1000 years and they didn't get to be huge simply because everyone loved them.  You either joined or died.  Michael Moore is no different from any other politically motivated drone who bends subjects or situations to fit his mold and then he spews it as truth.  In case everyone hasn't noticed politics are far from problem free and no your vote doesn't matter on the larger scale.

[Zarathustra]

to be fair seth, you're confusing the roman republic time frame with that of the empire.  completely different things.  roman as a station of power around for 1000 years, sure, i'll give you that.  but not the empire.

[The Buddha]

The small difference is that the romans tried to acheive greatness by exclusion, in breeding and disinheriting, while most great civilizations of today especially the US do so by assimilating, including and diversification. Huge difference there. The first was adopted by Russia earlier in the century and it looked like they were winning, the latter was adopted quite sub conciously by the US around the same time/earlier and has clearly out lived the other. I dont belive in the 200 year decay cycle, or even the 1000 year cycle...I'd say the last 1000+ years were building up to this point and it will improve from here on (albeit slowly and sometimes go backwards before going forward) and guess what the whole world will improve in lock step.
Cool.
Srinath.