New GS, engine seized. Diary of Rebuild/Testing - LOTS OF PICS!!!!!

[utgunslinger13]

A summary and some questions:

1. Brand new battery (are you sure it was properly charged?)
2. Solenoid clicks, but bike will not start (relay is stated as "good"; how was this tested?)
edit: I re-read your post and I think you stated that with the the starter gears disconnected, pressing the start button turned the starter motor? If so, this would explain the conclusion that all switches (clutch, sidestand etc.) and relays are good.
3. Removed sparkplugs; one of them appeared rusted.
4. Placed bike on centrestand (with plugs out) and tried to turn rear tire with bike in 6th gear - NO TURN
5. Ran alongside bike (in 6th gear) and dropped clutch - REAR WHEEL TURNS

If you put the bike in neutral, does the rear tire spin freely?
If you pull in the clutch, does the rear tire spin freely?
Now that you have gotten the rear wheel to turn (i.e. item 5), what happens if you repeat step 4?
Shine a flashlight into the spark plug holes and look for rust, broken valves, etc.

You are correct that by removing the starter gears and pushing the start button, everything worked as it was supposed to. So everthing from the starter backwards is working properly (battery, relay, starter motor).
The tire does spin freely in neutral, and if you pull in the clutch.
I have tried to spin the rear tire by hand both before and after running beside it and droping the clutch. Both times I was able to practically lift the bike off its center stand and the wheel did not budge.
Unfortunately, the only flashlight I have was dead so I am picking up batteries for it today.

Any input?

Thanks,

Nick

[beRto]

You are correct that by removing the starter gears and pushing the start button, everything worked as it was supposed to. So everthing from the starter backwards is working properly (battery, relay, starter motor).

OK. Makes sense to me.

The tire does spin freely in neutral, and if you pull in the clutch.

OK. So this doesn't point to a transmission or clutch problem.

I have tried to spin the rear tire by hand both before and after running beside it and droping the clutch. Both times I was able to practically lift the bike off its center stand and the wheel did not budge.

It seems very strange that the wheel will spin with the bike moving, but not when parked. I guess things are not stuck, but just very rough. What is the oil level? (maybe the oil is too high and making it tough to move the pistons). I'm guessing that because you've taken off the side panels, the oil is drained?

Unfortunately, the only flashlight I have was dead so I am picking up batteries for it today.

OK. We'll have to wait for these results. That orange spark plug might point to rust in the cylinder (which could be why it is hard to move). Penetrating oil is a good idea. You probably want to use something more potent than WD-40; maybe Liquid Wrench or similar (PB Blaster in the USA?).

If the cylinder is rusted out, the cylinder will need to be honed and new piston rings will be required.

[sledge]

If you cant turn it by hand, cold and with the plugs out it is siezed ....period!....Get it out, get it apart, weigh it up and make a decision based on what you find. There is no easy solution to this and it will never be 100% servicable again. You dont know its previous history and for all thats known the PO could have run it low on oil and dried out a bearing!

Assuming a piston has been stuck in the cylinder due only to rust for the last 6 months and in the very unlikely chance that penetrating oil releases it the bore will be badlly pitted, and the rings stuck in their grooves. It will slap, burn oil, and compression will be down so low that it may cause mixture problems.

[utgunslinger13]

The oil level seemed to be fine before I drained it, but keep in mind I was unable to start it and get the bike warm before checking the level. But you are correct, the oil has been drained before removing the side cover.  I will grab some PB Blaster on the way home along with batteries and post up pics or results.

Any other input?

Thanks,

Nick

[sledge]

Here is a tip for freeing off seized pistons, I have done this several times and so have many of my friends. Its never failed if its just shaZam!, age and light rust holding them but if a piston has picked-up on the cylinder wall and scoured the metal it wont work and you are in trouble.

1) remove the cylinder head and expose the piston-crowns.
2) put about a pint of clean engine oil in an old saucepan and boil it on a gas ring
3) pour the boiling oil onto the piston crowns and at the same time gently turn the crank-bolt backwards and forwards. The combination of hot oil and the heat contained in it will slowly break the bond bewteen the piston and the cylinder and you will feel it free off. Depending on the severity you may have to repeat the procedure a few time.
4) when its free drain the oil and replace it along with the filter.

As you can guess its a dangerous thing to do, the oil will spit when it lands on the piston. If you are going to do this wear some protective gear and be sensible about it.

[utgunslinger13]

I appreciate the suggestion, but this seems a litte outside my realm!  I am currently without a garage, and mostly small handtools.  I am working on the bike in the walkway in front of my apartment by my stairs!  At this time removing the engine is out of the question without being able to throw something in it right away.  What am I looking at for either a used engine from somewhere, or to rebuild this engine?  Any ideas or suggestions?

Thank you,

Nick

[ben2go]

There were a couple used engines on ebay.I'd say around $300 to $500.

[utgunslinger13]

What about a complete rebuild?  Are parts even available to rebuild these engines?  I know the local suzuki dealership didn't even have a battery that would fit!

Thanks again,

Nick

[utgunslinger13]

Anyone?  I also looked in the spark plug holes, and although you can't see much it does seem like the inside is colored rust orange.  Out of one of the spark plug holes it smells like straight fuel if that makes any difference?  I was however unable to make it to the store to pick up some PB blaster, but from some of the previous comments I'm not sure it would make a difference anyway?

Thanks for your input,

Nick

[beRto]

Anyone?  I also looked in the spark plug holes, and although you can't see much it does seem like the inside is colored rust orange.  Out of one of the spark plug holes it smells like straight fuel if that makes any difference?  I was however unable to make it to the store to pick up some PB blaster, but from some of the previous comments I'm not sure it would make a difference anyway?

Realistically, all signs point to serious damage that will need some form of rebuild. Since the damage is already done, it can't hurt to spray some penetrating oil and see what happens. You can probably get the thing to run, it will just never run well... and if it does run, there is a higher risk that something will break and cause internal damage that will be even more difficult (read: expensive) to fix later.   

[utgunslinger13]

ok well if engine seizure/failure is the case what are my options?  What would be easier?  The way I see it is:

1.) Search for a used engine, with an honest seller that will run and need work (CHEAPER)
2.) Track down all the parts needed to rebuild and fix my engine (more expensive, and are the parts all even available to order?)

Thanks,

Nick

[ben2go]

If it's just stuck rings,you can do a re-ring.You'll need to get the engine to turn to do this.Pull the head,cylinders,and pistons.Send the cylinders to be cleaned and honed at a machine shop.Remove the rings from the pistons.Use a green scotch brite pad to clean the pistons.Install new rings,and install freshly honed cylinders.Use plenty of fresh oil.I use a 45 degree offset on my ring gaps, on most air cooled engines.If you need a ring compressor,Northern Tool had a cheap one.

[utgunslinger13]

My worry is the fact that other than oil pan and valve cover gaskets, or tapping an oil pan on my civic for turbo drain lines, I have never done internal work. Let alone been inside a suzuki engine.  What would I be looking at (parts availability, tech knowledgable) if I outsourced the engine rebuild? Prices? Suggestions in greater Phoenix area?

Thanks,

Nick

[beRto]

My worry is the fact that other than oil pan and valve cover gaskets, or tapping an oil pan on my civic for turbo drain lines, I have never done internal work. Let alone been inside a suzuki engine.  What would I be looking at (parts availability, tech knowledgable) if I outsourced the engine rebuild? Prices? Suggestions in greater Phoenix area?

Thanks,

Nick

I think you biggest problem would be a proper workspace. It will be difficult/impossible to rebuild the engine if you are limited to an outdoor walkway. You will need space to store the parts you remove and keep everything in order. Also, working outdoors will lead to problems with dirt blowing into the open engine. I've rebuilt a couple of scooter engines in my living room, but this can lead to relationship issues if you are not living alone! 

The GS engine itself is pretty simple and parts availability is good. Have both the Clymer and Haynes manuals on hand and read them over a few times before you get into the engine.

If you've concluded that the cylinder is rusted and the piston is stuck, the best thing to do is open up the engine and get a good look at the damage. This will determine how much effort will be required for repair.

Good luck, and don't forget to post some pictures!

[utgunslinger13]

I'm just a little nervous about opening it up myself.  I'm likely to miss all kinds of small damaged parts that a more sophisticated mechanic might notice, or put something in wrong and ruin all that work!  What would I be looking at pricewise, and is it possible to do it this way, if I remove the engine and leave it at a dealership to have it rebuilt?

If I did decide to rebuild it myself, what kind of price range am I looking at for parts for a COMPLETE rebuild?  Is there a kit or will I need to tear apart the engine, find out what is good and can be reused then piece together everything else from there?

Thank you,

Nick

[beRto]

I'm just a little nervous about opening it up myself.  I'm likely to miss all kinds of small damaged parts that a more sophisticated mechanic might notice, or put something in wrong and ruin all that work!  What would I be looking at pricewise, and is it possible to do it this way, if I remove the engine and leave it at a dealership to have it rebuilt?

I am sure you can bring your engine to a dealership for a rebuild; however, I suspect this approach will cost you more than a decent used engine. It may be worthwhile to call a couple of local shops, describe the problem, and get a cost estimate from them directly.

If I did decide to rebuild it myself, what kind of price range am I looking at for parts for a COMPLETE rebuild?  Is there a kit or will I need to tear apart the engine, find out what is good and can be reused then piece together everything else from there?

Sorry, I've never had to do a complete rebuild on a GS, so I can't help you with kits etc. Since a used engine in good condition costs $300 - $500, it should be less than that or else you're better off scrapping the engine.

It will be difficult to estimate the cost of a rebuild without knowing the extent of the damage. If it's just new piston rings and a cylinder honing that won't cost too much. If the valves are messed up, or the cylinder has any major scratches/scoring (which may have been caused by your efforts to free the piston), or the piston needs replacement, the repair cost will be higher.

Under the circumstances, I think your best bet is to take off the head and get some photos of the damage. This will help decide the best course of action. There is little benefit to guessing at the damage and the subsequent cost of repair. Do you have a repair manual? This will help you open the engine without much risk of damaging anything.


edit: if you change the title of this thread ("Engine Rebuild Advice Please" or similar), you may attract attention from other members who have rebuilt several GS engines but have not commented in this thread: Dgyver, Buddha, etc.

[ben2go]

If you were close I would help you out.Cost varies from shop to shop.I would try calling a few shops.A used engine would probably be cheaper.Used engine is $300 to $500 and an engine rebuild is $700+.They'll more than likely want the engine in the bike so they can test the rebuild and do a run in.

[sledge]

You are dithering on this.........the only person who can say if you are capable of reliably repairing this engine yourself is.........yourself, no-one in here can say if you are up to it or not, we dont know you and positive comments and helpful advice wont change the fact. From your comments made so far and bearing in mind your apparant lack of knowledge, confidence, facilities, tools etc and with respect....... I would say you are not.

I am going to make another suggestion that so far has not been mentioned, it might be a non-starter  but given the situation and your desire to keep costs to a minimum its probably the most realistic........ You start ringing round the breakers, you find one with a used but good condition engine and agree a price, you then ask them if they will fit it for you and take your old one in part-ex and then agree another price for the full job. Most of the breakers here in the UK do this and it costs a fraction of what a dealer (and their hourly-based rates) would charge. My local breaker charges £50 to remove a GS5 engine and replace it with a used one he has supplied, that about $100.............. its not worth getting your hands dirty.

[ben2go]

You are dithering on this.........the only person who can say if you are capable of reliably repairing this engine yourself is.........yourself, no-one in here can say if you are up to it or not, we dont know you and positive comments and helpful advice wont change the fact. From your comments made so far and bearing in mind your apparant lack of knowledge, confidence, facilities, tools etc and with respect....... I would say you are not.

I am going to make another suggestion that so far has not been mentioned, it might be a non-starter  but given the situation and your desire to keep costs to a minimum its probably the most realistic........ You start ringing round the breakers, you find one with a used but good condition engine and agree a price, you then ask them if they will fit it for you and take your old one in part-ex and then agree another price for the full job. Most of the breakers here in the UK do this and it costs a fraction of what a dealer (and their hourly-based rates) would charge. My local breaker charges £50 to remove a GS5 engine and replace it with a used one he has supplied, that about $100.............. its not worth getting your hands dirty.

This is an idea but junk yards here rarely do that.Another problem in the US is the lack of motorcycle recyclers.The closest one to me is 350 miles or 4.5 hour ride.

utgunslinger13 
I would try sledge's suggestion first.Not gonna loose anything by trying that.Ask around,try Yellow pages,and the internet to locate a recycler,salvage yard,or used parts seller.

[utgunslinger13]

Well right now I have sprayed some PB Blaster down the spark plug holes and am going to let it sit overnight.  Before spraying it in, I tested again everything as before. So I set it on its center stand, removed the spark plugs...

In neutral that rear tire spins freely.
In any gear with the clutch pulled the rear tire spins freely.
In any gear the tire will not spin more than a couple inches (when the chain slack is taken up), and no matter how hard I tug I could not get the tire to spin.
In 6th gear I took off at a dead run and dropped the clutch. The tire rolled like it was turning the engine over, until the speed dropped enough and locked the tire.

So other than a catastrophic failure internally I am at a loss as to why it will turn over pushing but at no other time.

I have verified that the battery, starter relay, and starter motor are all working properly, and that the rotor and stator are in great condition.  However, in nuetral I was unable to turn the rotor using a socket on the center bolt, nor was I able to turn the ignitor on the other side of the engine at all!

I think the only other option I have is to actually pull the motor and tear it down.  Any other options short of engine removal?  If I were to remove the head, is it possible to do it with the rest of the engine still in the frame?

Thank you,

Nick