Bike is FLOODING and idle hangs WAYYY high..Turned into damaged engine internals

[Kasumi]

Once you've fixed this up and get it back on the bike you need to look at the other causes for hanging idle just incase this is a symptom of something else. If your carbs are clean you need to check your throttle response. Pull the cable out run oil through the line and put it back in and route it so its free with only sweeping curves to reduce tension. Then adjust it. You want a tiny bit of play in the grip but mm's only. Then when you twist the grip your butterflies should open from their resting position to full as your grip hits its stop. Then you know your cable is allright. Hope it goes ok man.

I had hanging idle on my zxr400 for god knows how long, the only way to bring it down was it would come down after a couple of minutes or to slip the clutch and force it to drop low where it would stay. I fitted better spark plugs (iridium ones - worth every single penny they sorted half my problems and cold starting without the choke!) then adjusted the throttle cables, cleaned carbs and messed around with the idle. Now it runs sweet as a nut.

[lewismug]

I finally got around to pulling the engine from the bike today.  Tomorrow afternoon I'll pull the head and see what all has been damaged.  Hopefully not too much.  And I thought it was my butterflies that were stuck, but they open and close just fine.  There are actually two black things that cover the carb entrances that slide up and down.  Any idea what they are because they will not move at all without me pushing them up with my finger.

[The Buddha]

That is normal they are closed, they have springs holding it down till the venturi velocity goes up then they open with the velocity staying proportional to their opening. AKA, more velocity = more lifting in them ... they are the slides, and its constant velocity carbs.
Cool.
Buddha.

[mach1]

you shouldnt have to remove the motor to remove the head. just remove the tank and all the stuff on top  of the heads and your in buisness

[Copperhed51]

As for your high idle problem, I'd check your vacuum lines.  Hell, check every hose that's connected to the carb and make sure they're all in good shape.  I had these issues and one of my vacuum lines was old and cracked all to hell.  Not long after that, one of my fuel hoses gave way.  Needless to say, I went ahead and replaced everything after that.  Good luck.

[lewismug]

Well, it's already done Mach.  I asked the question if I had to remove the engine to get the heads off and no-one gave me a clear answer.  It's better this way though.  I had gaskets and seals starting to leak oil and I can replace them all while the engine is out.

[lewismug]

Alright, I now have the engine out of the bike and partially disassembled.  All I have left is to pull the head bolts and take that off.  Then I can see what all I'll need to replace.  Wish me luck guys.

[DoD#i]

The head should come off the jugs (cylinders - lower finned part between head and engine case) which should stay around the pistons. At least that's true if you pull the head off the jugs, not the jugs off the pistons (it's the same set of studs holding both on). Don't pry and break fins.

go to this recent thread, perhaps?
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=41982.0

Gory, and not where you want to go:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=41803.0

[lewismug]

Pulled the engine apart tonight and I found a few things that were damaged.

1.  Left piston.  Scarred a little on top of the dome, but I think it will be alright.  Scarring is very minimal, more like scratches.

2. Left exhaust vale actually broke in two.  The valve stay (keeper) was still attached to most of the valve stem.  It broke about 1/3 the way up the shaft from the head of the valve.

3. Valve seat is scarred very little.  I think it can be honed out to keep the new valve from being leaky.

4.  Valve shim bucket (thing shims sit in) doesn't seem to want to go back into the hole it came out of.  Had to put a small screwdriver through where the valve is supposed to come through and knock it out from underneath.

Ok, what in the hell could cause a valve just to break like that?  Almost seems like the piston came up and hit the exhaust valve while it was extended, but the piston seems alright. Everything I have looked at seems to be alright except for the items I mentioned above.  What could be causing the shim bucket to not fit correctly?  The intake bucket from the same side fits perfectly in the hole, but the exhaust bucket won't fit in the same hole.  Could it be warped?  What exactly is it called so I'll know what to order from bikebandit?  I took a few pics of the damage, and will post them tomorrow morning when I get to work.

[beRto]

Pulled the engine apart tonight and I found a few things that were damaged.

4.  Valve shim bucket (thing shims sit in) doesn't seem to want to go back into the hole it came out of.  Had to put a small screwdriver through where the valve is supposed to come through and knock it out from underneath.

Ok, what in the hell could cause a valve just to break like that?  Almost seems like the piston came up and hit the exhaust valve while it was extended, but the piston seems alright. Everything I have looked at seems to be alright except for the items I mentioned above.  What could be causing the shim bucket to not fit correctly?  The intake bucket from the same side fits perfectly in the hole, but the exhaust bucket won't fit in the same hole.  Could it be warped?  What exactly is it called so I'll know what to order from bikebandit?  I took a few pics of the damage, and will post them tomorrow morning when I get to work.

gsJack talked about a sticky bucket that eventually got stuck and broke a valve:
http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=42732.msg480271#msg480271

Maybe you've had the same bad luck?

I think gsJack said that it was cold weather the finally caused the bucket to stick. Had you had any similar cold weather?

[lewismug]

Mine snapped in the exact same spot and the break even looks the same!  Anyone have an extra bucket they wanna get rid of?  No cold weather at all.  It's been pretty warm here in the south.  But the side of the bucket does look a bit darker than the sides of the others.  Maybe it's just been sticking for a while.  I did notice the last time I actually rode the bike, it was backfiring a little every few minutes, so I think the bike was trying to tell me something.....I was just too stupid to listen!

[anticoriolis]

Are those the original buckets from the motor? Did you ever accidentally swap them around from their respective holes? Or did the buckets just start sticking on their own?

[lewismug]

Nope, this is the first time I have ever opened the engine.  Never swapped anything around.  It stuck on its own.  Not sure why just yet.

[ohgood]

Didn't you just do a valve adjustment recently ? (OK, maybe you were in line for the kit/missing kit)

It's possibly the bucket wasn't quite round, and when you did the valve adjustment it rotated to a non-fun position that eventually seized things and broke the valve. I'm only guessing.

Other thing could have been it (remember that knocking noise you worried about a while back?) was always wrong, and finally gave way. Take a close look at the break point on the valve. If it looks like a crisp line that means it was a FAST break at a hard/overly hard point in the valve's shaft. If the break looks like a feather, it means it was a bend THEN break. Fractures could mean a factory defect and that the valve was just too hard (brittle) and your bike's days were numbered from the get-go.

Just some stuff to look at. Sorry to hear you've got her all beat up right now.

[lewismug]

Nope, haven't done an adjustment yet.  My surgery took me off the list.  Called Bike Bandit, and the guy I spoke with was extremely nice and helpful in finding all the parts I need.  Total is around 220.00 with shipping, so I should be back on the road within a few weeks.  Wifey will get pissed if I "blow" 200 bucks on my "damn" motorcycle.....but then again, she's complaining about how much gas I'm using in the Audi, so maybe she'll come around.  Either way, I'll get the parts.  It's just a matter of time now.  Went ahead last night and pulled the entire cylinder head off the engine and had a good look at my pistons and rings.  One ring on each piston was partially stuck, and there were some pretty good chunks of the valve that were kind of stuck between the piston and the wall, so I guess it's a good thing that I pulled it all off.  Cylinder walls were alright, with nare a scrape or nick.  I'm gonna replace every gasket on the engine while I have it out, so I'll tear it down the rest of the way tonight or tomorrow night.

[The Buddha]

You prolly need to hone and run new rings. You also need to smoothen the piston. You cannot have any sharp points anywhere in the chamber. It will start dieselling if there is.
How does the head look. My friends savage that broke a valve (BTW his didn't even have buckets) chewed the head up good too. I'd put kibblewhite valves in it. Valves need to be made of Inconel. Suzuki uses a BS material in theirs.
Cool.
Buddha.

[lewismug]

Buddha, yeah, I'm gonna smooth the piston out on top.  The rings look fine.  I was just planning on removing them, cleaning them and the pistons up, and re-installing everything.  I will hone the bores out as well.  Would this be acceptable or no?  First time I've ever basically rebuilt an engine and done this kind of work.  I've done almost everything but worked with pistons and the such, so I'll admit I'll need some guidance on the best way to do this.  The head looks fine to me, but then again, I haven't gone over everything with a fine tooth comb just yet.  Still in the process of tearing everything down.  I plan on cleaning everything up really well before I put it all back together.  It was already leaking oil a little, hence the need/want for new gaskets all around.  My biggest worry is getting the timing back right when I put it all back together.  I have no clue how.  I don't want the piston to come into contact with another valve once everything is back together.

Ohgood, the valve seems to have a pretty crisp fracture, so I don't think it bent beforehand.  No worries.  I'm just ready to hurry up and ride again.  Weather is perfect and I see everyone else riding and it makes me mad as hell!

[The Buddha]

On the chamber - well any sharp spots will get hot and cause detonation. That means you need the head and piston dome nice and smooth, You hone it and get it clean and you can use the stock pistons. But the savage I did last year had serious dents in the cylinder wall, It had to have a 1/2mm over bore. I opted to buy a new motor, do that one's head and use the rest as is. Savage motors have the cylinder bolted to the cases so you can do just the head on them and not have to do the base gasket also.
Anyway, you deck the head, put new valves and custom ground 3 angle valve job in it, etc etc
Cool.
Buddha.

[lewismug]

On the chamber - well any sharp spots will get hot and cause detonation. That means you need the head and piston dome nice and smooth, You hone it and get it clean and you can use the stock pistons.  Anyway, you deck the head, put new valves and custom ground 3 angle valve job in it, etc etc
Cool.
Buddha.

Is a valve job/custom ground 3 angle valve job necessary, or can I just get by with replacing the broken parts, and smoothing out the piston and head?

[The Buddha]

New valves will be blank edge, unless you get custome machined stuff from kibblewhite types. The seats will have to be re conditioned anyway, a valve breaking in the guide can cause seat to get some wear marks. If its open, cut the seals and valves. Your guides are good - especially the one that broke. If its going to wobble the damn valve can get stuck in it again, ot get the bucket crooked and stuck or somehting. Guides and seats can be re-used/left in place only after you are sure they dont have the potential to tear up the new items you put in there. You are replacing the valves right ? or just that 1 ? I suggest you get kibblewhite valves instead of suzuki. And match the seats and valves and make sure guides are all good. You've done 90% of the work, I'd just complete it so you know its good.
Cool.
Buddha.