my conscience is bothering me

[frankieG]

gitmo is currently holding a 15 year old Canadian boy who is charged with throwing a grenade and killing a soldier in Afghanistan.   i have seen footage of this boy/guy and i wonder if he should be there or not.  i did my time over there including the first gulf war and Afghanistan.  the guys age bothers me.  there may or may not have been an incident by someone i may or may not have known during the gulf war.  a young boy was capture but let go to live.  he ran straight to the army and the unit that may or may not have had them were captured/killed...only one survived.  i run this scenario in my head over and over again.  would i let him go?  would i kill him?  is there an age limit during war?  what can i, personally live with.  those of you who know me know that i already have great difficulty resolving some of my decisions.   as a officer i carried the burden of command and it is a greater burden than i had expected.  so am i asking a question? or just opening up for discussion? i guess a bit of both.  every night and i mean every night i have dreams where these decisions come back to haunt me.  i am so glad i am no longer in the military because to be honest i don't think i could take much more of this.  guys who have served know what i mean right away and require very little info to understand what i speak of.   i know many of you will think or say...if he was old enough to use a weapon yada yada...but a 8 or 10 year old could use a weapon and be talked into almost anything.  when do they grow up and know fully the ramification of their actions.  they are not trained like us, they are not professional it is just religious brain washing.   lets keep the racism and silly banter to a minimum if we can.  but i understand the anger out there so if you need to let it out so be it.  lets talk.

[lewismug]

Frankie, you have brought up one of the hardest things to deal with.  I'm not sure how I would react in a situation like that.  I believe that if any of my brothers were in harms way, or I were in harms way, I would have to do what I had to do to keep them or myself safe.  There are other ways of disarming someone besides putting a bullet through their chest.  But I know that clear thought isn't easy to come by in tense situations where immediate action is necessary.  I'm sure any decisions you made were made in the best interest of you and your men/women.  I personally can't speak for what should have/would have been done because I haven't been put in that situation.  I would like to think that if I were, then I would be able to live with my decision.  I have spoken quite a bit with guys from my unit that were in Iraq and Afghanistan, and some of them either saw what you are describing firsthand or had to deal with a situation similar to yours personally.  They seem to be haunted by their actions, but then again, they are still here for their families and are able to tell their stories.  Trying to forget something that could never be forgotten in a hundred million years tends to weigh heavily on the mind.  Talking about it seems to help them most.  Trying to hold the anger and regret inside will drive you mad.  We will always second-guess ourselves, no matter what.  It's natural.  Hindsight is always a different animal to deal with.  I know most of what I have typed here is probably way off base and you'll all think I'm crazy, but hey, talking about it can only make it better.

[frankieG]

no lewis you are not off base....thanks for the input

[b_long_1]

sad to say, war has no age limit. I am also sure you did what was in the best interest of you and your men.  the best way to deal with these feelings is to continue to talk about them. Don't keep things pent up. I am sure you will find plenty of people in this forum that will offer great advice in dealing with these feelings.

[yamahonkawazuki]

TBH frankie, war has no age limit. look at teh KIDS whom the enemy are using. and what our men/women in uniform has to face on a daily basis. im assuming each situation is different, as well as its outcome. you as a soldier know this, and would have to deal with it. on a case by case basis. i mean can you trust the enemy? NO ( to an extent) youve prolly milliseconds to decide who lives, and who may die., im not trying to make light of the situation you described, in the initial sentence of your thread, BUT how did a 15yo canadian ( boy im assuming) get to afghanistan. anyhoo anyhting i can do , jsut tlak at me. through pms or postings or whatnot

[b_long_1]

by the way frankie, in which theatres did you serve? My father served in Viet Nam and has had several health issues. Recently we have found that these are not isolated and have a direct connection to where and when he served.

[spc]

Frankie......... Lay your worrisome conscience to rest.  If you placed your men first, then your mission then your own personal safety, you were a great leader.  As simple as it may sound, that is the key.  When you lay restless, ask yourself: 'Would I rather have these doubts and nightmares or live with the guilt of knowing I could have prevented one of my men's deaths?'  I've seen the look in a young childs face when he is told daddy won't be coming home.  Of all the shaZam! I've seen, that is the one I wish I could forget. 

Re-integration into 'normal' society has many demons that can rear their heads in many ways, it brings to mind a qoute by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle:
"It is a fool's plan to teach a man to be a cur in peace, and think that he will be a lion in war."

Bottle it up and push it to the back of your mind or let it all out.  Only you know how to best handle this for yourself.

[yamahonkawazuki]

Well said terry. well said

[frankieG]

by the way frankie, in which theatres did you serve? My father served in Viet Nam and has had several health issues. Recently we have found that these are not isolated and have a direct connection to where and when he served.

Iran 1988 cease fire between Iran and Iraq
89 invasion of panama
90-91 first gulf war - painting
92 Bosnia - high value target
93 Somalia - high value target
99 kosovo/Yugoslavia -refugees
02 Afghanistan initial push after 9/11 to find duck head
02-03 Iraq-high value target

minor bits n pieces in between

[ajaxgs]

frankie there is no age limit as whats been said , me as a civilian CAN NOT imagine what our soilders go through on a daily basis , only they will know and the people that they share their stories with ......as for the boy in gitmo from what i have read he trined in a terrorist camp in afganistan , the mom was on the news last night saying what a nice boy he is (  ) canada in my opinion is too soft on letting people though our doors ( i am born and raised canadain ) the man i work for is from sri lanka many people that come to our countrys want a better way of life away from opression and war but some do slip though that just want the passport that they can hide behind in times like this !!!

back to your main point is i myself could never imagine what that decision would be if faced with ...


so with that said i salute all the men / woman in uniform that let me sleep peacefully at night regardless of what side of our two countrys !!!

thank you

[bettingpython]

If you feel you need absolution you should go see a priest, if you are having anger issues because of these things maybe you need to see a psychologist.

A good friend and former co-worker of mine served during the Korean war. During road marches when coming upon groups of refugees who disobeyed orders to halt and continued towards the patrolling platoon I have heard of some things they did because guerillas would embed themselves in the refugee groups and women with bombs in baby baskets or kids with grenades would walk right up to a platoon on patrol and take them out.

I will never think less of a soldier or officer who had to do what was necessary to proteect his men first then if possible innocent civillians. You were a professional soldier a warrior not a police officer who is sworn to a different mission.

Kid's taking up arms against trained soldiers is a horrible thing to have to defend yourself against but it should strengthen the resolve of any man to press the fight against those who would use children in such a manner.

Put your mind at ease frankie the fact that you have a concisience which is bothered by these acts means your not an animal.

When a force commits acts of violence agaiinst innocents in an effort to proactively suppress possible guerilla warfare is when a professional soldier has crossed the line between human and beast. I suspect you never did this since what you describe sounds to be remorse at doing what was truly necessary and no more. 

[ajaxgs]

Put your mind at ease frankie the fact that you have a concisience which is bothered by these acts means your not an animal.

well said!!!

[Kasumi]

I think the important thing to remeber is war and theatres of duty are NOT in ANY WAY related to your life back home. The problem from where i see it as now your back to living in a 'relativly' civilised society then the shooting of a child is just unimaginable. In war you are there to lead your men and it sounds to me like you have done that well and as people have said before you would probably be haunted much more by the replaying of the time you told the family that their son/daughter was lost during war more than saving their lives.

The use of children is a cheap dirty trick of psychological warfare, they are easily pursuded and brainwashed as you say into hurting you and they are used in the hope that you will treat them different to the grown men you are also fighting. It is a shame they have to die but sometimes it just has to be like that, if you were weak to it you would have lost men and then the use of children would continue.

If the attitude can be kept that they are just the enemy and are dealth with under the ROE the same as any other man then hopefully the enemy will be discouraged to use them if is making little difference however as long as it still works it will go on.

It is also very encouraging to know that you have feelings on this, many many soldiers who see the horrific things that have happening in war and places like Bosnia come back completely detached and will stay like that for a very long time. The quote used earlier is very true.

Im not a solider, however will be reapplying for the RAF this year after failing a medical and getting kicked out last. I studied war psychology in Uni.

[ajaxgs]

here is a link to the kader case  http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_24769.aspx

[yamahonkawazuki]

Well written BP well written sir 

[Fry]

i run this scenario in my head over and over again.

every night and i mean every night i have dreams where these decisions come back to haunt me.

Frankie, are you dealing with these dreams or more correctly are they impacting your quality of everyday life? If so you perhaps should work them out somehow, many different ways from Formal Therapy to Wrenching on the GS late into the night.

Once you make a decision you gotta live with it, and Boy have I had many that I thought and or wanted to do over, more often than not though we don't get these do overs in life.

Take solace in the fact that you made a decision, probably hundreds of decisions that you, with the luxury or curse of hindsight would do differently however, at that time, that specific moment you made a choice a choice that was guided by a rational thought process, training, the situation at hand and all of the variables and goals involved.

Don't get into a funk as easy as it can be you did and choose what you saw right at the time.

[yamahonkawazuki]

Frankie it was either you and your men dying perhaps or the kid. you had to make a choice. and it seems you made the right one. granted i was not there, BUT i can only fathom the thoughts which are going through your head. . Here in afew days, a good friends body will arrive from afghanistan, ( found this out today), and myself and the "patriot guard may be asked to escort him to teh funeral home, and tehn to teh graveside. If asked to do this i WILL. but am somewhat scatterbrained on my thoughts at the moment . ill close by saying, if you need to talk in private, pm me, and iof need be ill give you my cell number

[frankieG]

thanks guys...i was having a downer day but i'm over it

[werase643]

Frankie
the decisions you make on the fly....are decisions you have to make to save yourself or your men.....they are the correct decisions
hindsight and couda/shoulda/woulda....but didn't  can't do anything about that
you made your decisions with the inputs and tools you had at the time

talking about it usually helps.... it dulls the pain
locking it up.....usually causes the screaming nightmares
join the VFW.....i wish i could.....but i wasn't off US soil during the incident in 91

this is interesting since i went home.....22 yrs late for a week(still there)
Monday i sat on the banks of the Wi river and talked to a Nam Vet for a couple of hours
and asked him some q's.  One of the stories he told me was about a friend who was a duck up till a couple of yrs ago when he finally started talking about Nam and his whole disposition changed.....35+ yrs later.   the stick was instantly removed from his butt and he was pleasant to be around

[frankieG]

i can't stand the va or vfa...just too depressing with too many drugs and alcohol.  also when they find out you are an officer they either start with the sir thing or start giving you a hard time over command decisions