Who are you voting for, for President?

[trumpetguy]

Don't dismiss the fact that Sarah Palin is Commander of the Alaska National Guard-- consider this.

Palin has never issued a single command to the Alaska National guard.

She's lying about the Bridge to Nowhere every day.  Even after she's been called on it.

[quiktaco]

Exactly Jserio, TrumpetGuy has been in this thread attacking everyone that talks bad about Obama.  Not once has he rebutted anything with any proof.

I've mostly grown to ignore his attacks, but the information he posts back, I do check out.

[trumpetguy]

i'm confused TG....if the links QT is posting are citing excerpts directly from Obama's book how is he "spouting lies" as you put it? 

The quotes are taken out of context.  The context is that Obama admits he grew up harboring racist views as a black American and cites different friends telling him such things.  He dismisses those views entirely.  To say that he really feels that way is a lie, pure and simple.

[trumpetguy]

Exactly Jserio, TrumpetGuy has been in this thread attacking everyone that talks bad about Obama.  Not once has he rebutted anything with any proof.

Whatever.  How much proof do you need?

Here's another -- you say that Obama believes in evolution, not creation.  They are not mutually exclusive.  I teach with Christian biologists.  They believe in evolution and creation.  If you don't believe in evolution, don't take any new antibiotics; you simply won't need them because it's impossible that bacteria have evolved into drug-resistant strains.

You need to see the world in OTHER than black and white, dude.  You worry me.

[quiktaco]

Yes he grew up with these racist views, and just a few weeks back, saw his faults and left his racist church.  He's no longer a racist.  Scratch my previous posts, I apologize.

Also, TrumpetGuy, you link www.noone_cares_about_your_lies.com  doesn't work.  If you have a link with actual facts pointing the other way, I'd be happy for you to share them with us.  Maybe the things I have found have been taken out of context, but why did he scratch things from the Audio version when he knew he was campaigning for president?  The things he took out of the Audio version are the worst things, things he wouldn't want people to hear about.

[jserio]

do you have reference to this dismissal?  and what about the church obama has attended for 20+ years. he claims he doesn't have the same views as his pastor. if that's the case, why attend there for 20+ years?   and how does sitting there for 20+ years listening to this pastor he does not agree with not affect his own thoughts/beliefs etc?

[quiktaco]

I don't believe in Evolution.  And your example is not considered Evolution.  Evolution is the changing of one species into another.  Not adapting.  I was never a monkey.  Maybe you were, but I know I wasn't.  Neither a fish, or primordial goo.

There are some that believe in both...God created everything, then let it 'Evolve' over millions of years.  But these are not my views.  They obviously aren't your views either, so you shouldn't be fighting on that side.

Jserio, you've got it right.  I'd like to know these things as well.  You don't sit through 20+ years of something that you disagree with when it's voluntary to be there in the first place.  You go to a church that supports your views.  You don't choose your Uncle that may say things that you don't agree with.  You don't choose your 'Typical White' Grandmother either.  YOU DO CHOOSE YOUR CHURCH!!!

[trumpetguy]

I don't believe in Evolution.  And your example is not considered Evolution.  Evolution is the changing of one species into another.  Not adapting.  I was never a monkey.  Maybe you were, but I know I wasn't.  Neither a fish, or primordial goo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

[quiktaco]

Thank you...you're kinda going off topic, however.

I know I've seen lots of dogs, even wolves, and a bunch of other things.  But I've never seen an animal that was part one thing and part another.  There's chiwawa's and there's Great Danes, but they're both dogs.  Their traits change, and you can breed  in genetic information, but they are still dogs...Just like your antibiotic example...the 'biotics' are still whatever they are.

Also, did you know that Darwin didn't even believe in evolution...check it out.


Anyways, let's get back on topic.

[quiktaco]

Oh, and TrumpetGuy, on what basis are you saying that I'm not a Christian?  I gave proof behind my statements as I always try to do.  You did not. 

This is a debate, not an attack fest.  Give proof where you can.  If my proof or your proof can be rebutted, then we'll all learn something.  That's why I started this thread.  To enlighten people.  Whether it's that Obama is a good person, or McCain is a bad person, or vice versa, or whatever.  I don't hate Obama for the sole purpose of hating Obama.  It would be great if he were going to come in and be a reformer for this country.  However, he isn't a reformer, he hasn't reformed anything, and he's actually always fought against the reformation, when he could have actually done something about it.  The person that is portrayed in the Liberal media (pretty much all, but Fox that I know of), is not the true person that he really is.

I have brought forth my evidence to these findings, and you have done nothing but attack.  It is only showing that Obama's supporters are only supporting because they have "hope for change", but they don't even know what the change is.

[quiktaco]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2ijZP4pnpg

This is part 2, but watch all of the sections to this interview.  This is an interview of a man, David Freddoso, that wrote a book called "The Case Against Barack Obama."

This isn't a book full of speculation and theories about who he is.  This is a book with facts and evidence about who he is as a politician, who he is in public, and who he is in private.

[yamahonkawazuki]

Oh, and TrumpetGuy, on what basis are you saying that I'm not a Christian?  I gave proof behind my statements as I always try to do.  You did not. 

This is a debate, not an attack fest.  Give proof where you can.  If my proof or your proof can be rebutted, then we'll all learn something.  That's why I started this thread.  To enlighten people.  Whether it's that Obama is a good person, or McCain is a bad person, or vice versa, or whatever.  I don't hate Obama for the sole purpose of hating Obama.  It would be great if he were going to come in and be a reformer for this country.  However, he isn't a reformer, he hasn't reformed anything, and he's actually always fought against the reformation, when he could have actually done something about it.  The person that is portrayed in the Liberal media (pretty much all, but Fox that I know of), is not the true person that he really is.

I have brought forth my evidence to these findings, and you have done nothing but attack.  It is only showing that Obama's supporters are only supporting because they have "hope for change", but they don't even know what the change is.

but some here hate mccain for being mccain. i see few people. quote sources from neutral sources. err links that is. TG have a link from a neutral source,? that palin didnt oppose the bridge to nowhere. which btw, wasnt that a liberal pork barrel BS  earmark?, anyhoo back on topic. got a link to that again from a neutral source. you made th4e accusation, can you back it up?

[trumpetguy]

I recently got a promotion and I don't have time to do all your research.  I'm telling you it isn't true, the burden of proof should be on the ones making outrageous claims.

The Bridge to Nowhere story is in every media outlet somewhere right now -- some of the milquetoast reporters have even been BRAZEN anough to call it a lie.  (IMAGINE the news media being a watchdog -- it could happen -- oh right, they're corporate)  Anchorage Daily News did a story this week.  It was an earmark by the (now indicted) Republican Senator Ted Stevens, who endorsed Palin for Governor.  Alaska gets 10X the average earmark per capita.  10X!!!!!!!!  And Palin bragged about her ability to provide them when she was mayor.  There is video if that on youtube as well.  Now she wants to claim maverick and reform as her mantras.   She's good at reading Rove's scripts, and that's about it.

QT, your statement that Obama is not a Christian has as much basis as mine about your faith (that was my point which I did not make very well).  You know absolutely duck about what he believes.  You make judgments based on the fact that he does not follow the same extreme branch of Christianity that you do.  In Romans, Jesus said that of all the sins, self-righteousness was the worst of them.  Maybe you'll have time today to read the definition of self-righteousness (and that scripture as well).

Further, whether Obama is Christian or not is not a test for public office, a fact guaranteed by our Constitution.  I'd rather have Obama in office than someone who loudly and publicly claims Christianity, but lies us into a war, killing 4500 of our best Americans.  Like it or not, McCain/Palin represents another term of Bush and his bad decisions (mavericks, hmm?).  Bush and McCain are appearing together at a fundraiser in Oklahoma City tomorrow.

BTW, if you have trouble finding the Constitution, it's at the bottom of a shredder somewhere in the Oval Office. 

And last time I checked, Jesus was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a Governor.  (OK I borrowed that but its good).

[bettingpython]

I would like to point out that both Obama and Biden supported the bridge to nowhere by voting for it's funding in the senate, twice I might add, the second time resulted in the funds not being transferred to Katrina relief.

So Palin changed her mind and decided it wasn't such a great project after all. How many times have people revisited a subject and realized after logical analysis that it isn't such a good idea after all.

McCain and Palin will not be an extension of the Bush presidency, I was lukewarm about my parties choice of presidential nominee until he made what I consider an outstanding decision asking Palin to come aboard.

As to Obama's racial beliefs didn't Obama's new pastor from the very church he claimed to have left go the DNC?

Jesus was a spirtual leader not a comunity organizer, the living embodiment of God's presence on earth, I find it insulting you would equate Obama with Jesus.

Don't get me wrong I am not a religious person but comparing Obama to Jesus is disgusting.

[quiktaco]

I recently got a promotion and I don't have time to do all your research.  I'm telling you it isn't true, the burden of proof should be on the ones making outrageous claims.

Then you should not post things that you can't back up.  Wait until you find some bit of proof whether it's biased or not, then post in conjunction

QT, your statement that Obama is not a Christian has as much basis as mine about your faith (that was my point which I did not make very well).  You know absolutely duck about what he believes.  You make judgments based on the fact that he does not follow the same extreme branch of Christianity that you do.  In Romans, Jesus said that of all the sins, self-righteousness was the worst of them.  Maybe you'll have time today to read the definition of self-righteousness (and that scripture as well).

Your statement has absolutely no value compared to mine.  You don't know one thing about my faith other than what has been said, by me, on this board.  The world knows a lot about Obama's faith with his Trinity Church.  Whom by the way thinks that the bible is just a way to relate with their lives today, and how to become un-oppressed as a Black People.  They even think God and Jesus are Black.  God is not anything because he doesn't have a human body, the Holy Spirit doesn't have anything either, and Jesus was a JEW!!!  He was the only one of the TRINITY that had skin!

Anyways, you have no proof, and no basis to attack my religion.  The 'Christian' Church as a whole does not believe in the doctrines that his church believes in.  So yes, I can call him a non Christian, because he does not believe the same things that 'Christianity' believes in.

That would be like saying that you are a carpenter, just because you show up to your job every day.  But guess what, when you work in a retail shop selling staples, you aren't a carpenter.

I would appriciate, since you don't believe in the Bible, to not quote from it, in even more attempt to attack me.  I think you are refering to 'Pride as the sin', not self rightousness.  And yes, Pride is a sin, however, spreading the WORD OF GOD, is something that is praised by him.  I am not being Prideful in the least.  I am defending my beliefs, when someone (you) attack them.  This shows the other people that are reading this, that even though 'the devil' is trying to shake my faith, that I am standing strong with the Lord.  If this even touches one person's heart, it's worth it.

Further, whether Obama is Christian or not is not a test for public office, a fact guaranteed by our Constitution.  I'd rather have Obama in office than someone who loudly and publicly claims Christianity, but lies us into a war, killing 4500 of our best Americans.  Like it or not, McCain/Palin represents another term of Bush and his bad decisions (mavericks, hmm?).  Bush and McCain are appearing together at a fundraiser in Oklahoma City tomorrow.

Yes, it does make a difference, because it tells us what he believes as a person, and what he believes as a person is what he will bring to the table as a president.  If there was an extremist muslim running for office, that would be a big part of the race, because that will affect what he will do in office.  By you omitting these facts, it sounds like you are omitting even considering any decision in the matter.  You once accused me of being on the payroll for McCain, but guess who sounds like they are on the payroll for Obama.

BTW, if you have trouble finding the Constitution, it's at the bottom of a shredder somewhere in the Oval Office. 

Why, did you and your Communist friends put it there?!?

And last time I checked, Jesus was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a Governor.  (OK I borrowed that but its good).

Yes, and he also was THE SON OF GOD, and perfect in every way.  I knew the people that thought that Obama was the Messiah were out there, but I didn't think you were one.  But that does explain a lot.


One other thing.  Do you even watch the videos that I have posted, or are you just rebutting what I say without seeing the evidence that I bring to the table?

[Juan1]

Anyone else going through this thread, looking at the poster's location, and then guessing whether that poster's reply will be pro-McCain or pro-Obama?  Its good stuff.

For the record, religion doesn't really tell you where a candidate will fall on an issue.  Christian is too big of an umbrella to draw many conclusions.  Every president we've ever had has been Christian, yet Reagan and Carter couldn't be more different.  A better metric of what you're getting in a candidate is the individual's track record. 

Folks, we're in full campaign spin season.  Every former senator will be slammed for a total lack of executive experience.  Every former governor will be excoriated for a total lack of foreign affairs experience.  I beg you to cut through the spin, and ask yourself whos policy proposals you think are best for the country as a whole.  Please vote on policy, not on who's better looking, not on who helps your specific tax bracket, not on who is most similar to you.

[quiktaco]

Anyone else going through this thread, looking at the poster's location, and then guessing whether that poster's reply will be pro-McCain or pro-Obama?  Its good stuff.

For the record, religion doesn't really tell you where a candidate will fall on an issue.  Christian is too big of an umbrella to draw many conclusions.  Every president we've ever had has been Christian, yet Reagan and Carter couldn't be more different.  A better metric of what you're getting in a candidate is the individual's track record. 

Folks, we're in full campaign spin season.  Every former senator will be slammed for a total lack of executive experience.  Every former governor will be excoriated for a total lack of foreign affairs experience.  I beg you to cut through the spin, and ask yourself whos policy proposals you think are best for the country as a whole.  Please vote on policy, not on who's better looking, not on who helps your specific tax bracket, not on who is most similar to you.

I have to agree and disagree on some parts.  Religion, like I said affects what the candidate will think.  If he's got Muslim thoughts in his mind (I'm not saying that he does, so don't say I did), then it is very relevant, because that can be a threat to the well being of the country.  Religion matters.  It's the foundation for the person, and where they stand on issues.

Yes, Christians themselves have many different views, which in some parts is expected, because the Bible is written specifically enough, but broad enough, so that there is a lot of room for differences.  However, there are many things that the Bible does not stray on, and those are the basis of a non-denominational Christianity.  Everything else is not picked apart in detail, cause who knows.  That's why I'm a non denominational Christian.  I don't believe in picking apart certain things that can be this way or that.  I take the Book as the Word of God, and everything that is concrete is what I believe, and everything that was left general, was left general for a reason.

Yes, I do agree with looking at the policies, and past outward appearances.  However, I think everyone will always look to whom is most like them, because that is human nature.



I have a couple questions for Obama Supporters.  Mostly TrumpetGuy, since he's the most outspoken here.
      • Why are you for Obama?  What issues, what policies, how can you count on him to make the right decisions?

[Juan1]

Why am I for Obama?  I think he is nuanced and intelligent.  Furthermore, his pet projects (helping the poor, improving education, health care, fighting nuclear proliferation) mirror mine.

What policies do I agree with?  1.  Increasing taxes on the very wealthy to help cover our insane budget deficit.  2.  Merit based teacher pay, even though I've yet to hear how this will avoid penalizing teachers in poor areas where parents aren't supportive.  3.  Moving towards socialized medicine.  Our medical system is a global joke, and even if his proposal doesn't go as far as I'd like, its a step in the right direction.  4.  A diplomacy first approach to foreign issues.

How can I count on him to make the right decisions?  Are you kidding?  Take a look at his law school success (top of his class) and constitutional law teaching background if you wonder if he's smart enough.  Law school testing is critical thinking under pressure testing.  He's also executed a very effective campaign against a presumed presidential nominee.  Finally, the man is a workaholic.  Smarts, hard work, and a track record of being effective is enough for me, assuming I like his policies.

[quiktaco]

Thanks Juan1.  I'm glad you contribute to this thread, because you bring substance instead of attack.

I'm going to reply, but this isn't attacking, but just my views, and are all in my opinion

  • His pet projects, should be privatised, because I don't want to be paying for others to succeed.  If the poor are poor and stay poor, it was their choice.  If you work hard, you can get your kids into a better school, and you can pay for better health coverage.  If you're a lazy bum, then you get crappy school, live in slums, and get bad health care.
  Now nuclear proliferation is not really something that stands by those others, but a good point non the less.  I think we should stop the countries out there that will use nuclear power for harm, and keep ours for 'just in case' scenarios.  My beliefs say that the world was once cleansed by water (the great flood), and will again be cleansed by fire.  I don't know for sure, but I'm thinking that 'fire' is going to be nuclear warfare.  This sounds like a reason to stop them, but the world needs a good cleaning behind the ears, and in the butt crack. (my beliefs say that the world will be completely cleansed, everyone will not survive, and not a stone will stand atop another.)

  • Increasing taxes on the wealthy has shown detrimental effects in the past, because when the rich get taxed, the amount they pay their employees goes down, and they reduce the amount of people they employ.  When they get tax cuts, they hire more people and pay them more.  Cutting pet projects, and a bunch of other programs and letting the private sector pay for those things would, in my opinion be a better solution to reduce our deficit.

  • I do think teachers should be awarded on  merit.  I think if they worked in a private school, this could be accomplished, but in a public school I highly doubt it.
  (btw - I went to public school if anyone is wondering, and my mom currently and almost always has worked at a public school.  But right now, I'm working as hard as I can to be able to send my daughter to a private school when it comes time.)

  • I want to move away from socialized medicine.  Drugs will be outrageously priced, because the government will be paying for it, and the service will be crap because there won't be any strive for greatness amongst the doctors.  When people pay money for something, and there's competition amongst doctors, the service is better, and doctors try to know more, and perform better.  And when we pay out of our pockets for the drugs we need, we'll pay attention to how much we're paying and the drug companies can't get away with as high of prices.  Look how well Medicare is working right now.  There is so much fraud and bad service.  It's a disaster.  This is how the entire medical system would be.  Those that work hard will be able to get adequate coverage.  Those that are lazy and don't work for it, don't deserve it.  They get the bare minimum, because that's how much they contributed to the world.

  • You know that diplomacy is attempted first.  That's why we aren't attacking people every day.  When it doesn't work (like with terrorists), then that is when attacking is a good thing.  We didn't go attacking Russia after the Georgia attack did we?  We did go attack that bastards that attacked us, after 9/11.

  • (his law school success shows that, him and his mom working hard can get him into good schools, and private schools, and succeed greatly...Just saying) Yes, he does have great success with his schooling.  I do believe that he is an extremely smart, well educated, and capable leader, however the path that he wants to bring us down is not the road that I want to take.
  I agree with his smarts and hard work, however his track record has much to be desired.  He hasn't achieved much of anything in his positions in office.  I've only seen by his track record, that he has been against reform in Chicago (even though he says he fights for it).  He's not as involved as he should be missing 301 (23%) of 1282 votes  since Jan 6, 2005. 
  Statistics: Barack Obama has sponsored 136 bills since Jan 4, 2005, of which 122 haven't made it out of committee and 2 were successfully enacted. Obama has co-sponsored 659 bills during the same time period.  Of which, too many were highly unimportant things like, a concurrent resolution expressing the sense of Congress that a commemorative postage stamp should be issued honoring Rosa Louise McCauley Parks.
  The thing that he said he will do first and foremost when he gets into office, is sign the bill to allow partial birth abortions.  He has fought for this, and has tried to get it passed for a long time, when everyone else is against partial birth abortions.  He didn't say that he is going to get us out of the war first and foremost, or that he was going to do something about the environment.  No, he said that he is going to enact a bill that will give the right to a mother to kill her child, right before the baby comes into the world.  No one can say that this isn't a child yet.  This is murder and no one can deny that.

[bettingpython]

Merit based teacher pay doesn't work in public education because it is seen as an unfair practice by teachers unions, remember I work in a public school district. We have a state mandated pay scale that says we must pay a teacher x amount of money for x years of service and x degree level and additional amounts if they are certified for special ed or ell. Now we pride ourselves on paying above and beyond that mandatory pay scale in an effort to attract a greater poool of teachers to select who we would like to hire. We consistently have more applicants than positions, which allows our district to pick the best we can from the available teachers poool. Our support staff is also better paid than the average across the state.

FYI Unions are wholeheartedly supported by the Liberal cause and generally the Conservatives attempt to do away with them, again those are generalizations so any liberal tooting his horn for merit based pay is shooting himself in the foot when he supports an organized labor group which has been very successful in quashing those attempts.