Who are you voting for, for President?

[jserio]

it's obvious that this is a serious problem no doubt. i've not read the bill so i can't really comment. what i can say is that i'm sick of both sides not wanting to budge on this issue (among others) and screaming the other side is "wrong" just because they have a difference of opinion.


is there a link to this bill?

[Toogoofy317]

If it was like the last one in the Clinton admin it was like 24,000 pages.  I'm still deciding if I just want to take this to channel 9, Morgan and Morgan (for the people ya know), or spend another day arguing for hours with them. I've already made six calls yesterday. I'm not supposed to be stresssed because that causes chest pain but seems like my insurance doesn't care about that !

Mary

[trumpetguy]

it's obvious that this is a serious problem no doubt. i've not read the bill so i can't really comment. what i can say is that i'm sick of both sides not wanting to budge on this issue (among others) and screaming the other side is "wrong" just because they have a difference of opinion.


is there a link to this bill?

Bill as of July 14:
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

It is still being hammered out (some compromise with conservative democrats was reached today to cut costs even further).

I'm not saying any position is "wrong" other than lying.  Lying is wrong.   

[jserio]

i wasn't finger pointing at you TG....hope you didn't take it that way.  even should we dissagree on matters, that's ok.    thanks for the link. 

[trumpetguy]

I didn't think that was aimed at me so much.  No problem.

Here are my questions:
1) Why do Canada and England (and EVERY other European country as well as Cuba with universal health care) have lower infant mortality rates than the US?
2) Why do Canada and England (and EVERY other European country as well as Cuba with universal health care) have higher life expectancies than the US?

Please don't answer with Bill O'Reilly's famously dumb answer (available on youtube) where he claims it's because we have ten times their population, and ten times the accidents, etc.  But O'Lielly must not realize rates like these are per thousand births and per thousand people -- they are population independent.

[jserio]

but would not a larger population equal a larger birth rate? (and there by a larger infant mortality rate? )

[jserio]

i don't care what tag you put on our health care system. this is what i want: affordable care. the best care available for everyone. i think our older generations need better attention/care than they get. i think the BEST care needs to be available for everyone, not just the super rich.  incidents like one mary posted, need to stop. insurance companies need to stop this "you neeed pre-approval" crap for many of the things they require approval on. it's insane. fraud needs looked into as well. the stupid lawsuits have got to stop. i read a story of a man who got the wrong meds from wal-greens. (they accidently gave him female hormone medication) instead of taking it back and getting the right script, he sued them and won for over 800,000! cases like this are making premiums higher i think.

[trumpetguy]

but would not a larger population equal a larger birth rate? (and there by a larger infant mortality rate? )

NO NO NO NO!!!!!!

Infant mortality rate is measured in number of deaths PER 1,000 BIRTHS.  It is not the raw NUMBER of infant deaths.  It doesn't matter if there are 100,000 births or 100,000,000 births.  The rate is a comparable number in both countries.

We are not even in the top 30 in life expectancy OR infant mortality.  Now, who wants to talk about the "best" health care in the world? If you don't like insurance companies who profit by denying claims then let's remove profit from the equation.  I'm all for it.

[bill14224]

trumpetguy, I can answer that.  They have more healthy lifestyles than we do.  That's not the same thing as the performance level of your medical system.  People with various cancers and heart disease have a 4-fold increased rate of survivability in the U.S. than in the U.K., and trauma care in the U.S. is unparalleled.  As a biker that should matter to you.  It's a complicated issue.  Don't try to make it simple, and God, stop listening to network news!

Just look at Russia, one of the fattest and drunkest countries in the world.  Does their medical system work by modern standards?  No, it doesn't.  They have sent important people abroad for care they can't deliver and their life expectancy is low and dropping.  So is their population in the wake of the collapse of their socialist system.  That should tell you a lot.  Socialism doesn't work.  It weakens everything, and leaves disaster in its wake.  There's a hundred years of history to back it up.

Where did Johnny Depp send his seriously ill kid when France told him they couldn't deal with it?  He sent his kid to the United States of America, which has the best health care system in the world, despite its problems.  Socialized medicine is a poison pill.  There's a bumper sticker for you!  I live in Buffalo where thousands of Canadians come for care every year they can't wait for, filling-in for the inadequacies of the Canadian system.  Should I ignore the fact they exist?  You don't want socialized medicine.  Say goodbye to new medicines, technology, and procedures.  No profit incentive, medical science stands still.  Facts of life.

Our present house and senate bills EXEMPT the president, congress, and federal employees from what they're cooking-up for the rest of us.  That's right.  We will get the new formula and they will keep what they have.  You can't possibly like that one bit if you have half a brain, which I'm confident you do.  You ride a GS 500, so you can't be dumb.  You, and millions of others, need more information.  It's all out there if you'd bother to look for it.

This is why I voted for McCain, as much as I don't like him.  I saw this, among other things, coming, like global warming cap-and-trade schemes that will do nothing but double your utility rates, drive gas to $7, and kill jobs.  Pure B.S.  We don't control the climate, the Sun does.

I've been voting for who I hate the least for too many years.  Wouldn't it be great for people to be able to vote for people they actually like?  That won't happen until more people pay attention and become involved.  I love the fact we've finally elected a black president.  I hate the fact he's a Marxist.

[JB848]

It really worries me that we are spending all this time and effort to fix something that isn't broke for an estimated 92% of Americans? Socialist medicine has been proven that it doesn't work in multiple countries.

There are multiple programs that cater to the poor all ready. Why redesign the wheel because a minuscule thorn in the tire? Stupid sheep, in the absence of leadeership they will follow the one who talks the loudest or the most! How many times has that idiot been on TV so far? Hummm makes a sane person think, the rest are oblivious and are just walking if not running to the slaughter! 

[Toogoofy317]

JB if you would have researched WellCare is for those on Medicare this is what the Majority of our Older Americans and those disabled like myself have to deal with these problems just about everyday!

When was the last time you were in an ED waiting six hours to get seen and getting an astronomical bill that will put you in debt for years! I bet if you asked most American's they could not handle the financial cost of a major illness or accident. I mean the denial of the defibrillator was with Cigna health care from Disney which was considered at the time the best health insurance one could get in Orange/Osceola county! With a major Illness you'd be suprised how fast you go through that 2 million coverage not to mention all of the co-pays! I've had to put off many of my doctor appointments simply because I can't afford $20 co-pay. Out of 11 doctors 2 will see me and let me make payments on the co-pay. The others well sorry but we can't see you without the money up front. I still haven't gone back to the ENT doc to find out about my thyroid biopsy! TBH another major illness would do me in financially even with government assistance.

It just amazes me how people who talk about the poor getting all of this money and insurance are sorely mistaken. You don't get enough to survive on and the "insurance" if you can call it that is chitty at best non-existant at worse because maybe 2% of doctors will accept the insurance. Oh sure we get "insurance" but you have to drive 3 hours to find a doctor that will take it! Then they usually are those that are about to lose their license!

I think our answer lies in affordable preventive medicine!

Mary

[JB848]

JB if you would have researched WellCare is for those on Medicare this is what the Majority of our Older Americans and those disabled like myself have to deal with these problems just about everyday!

When was the last time you were in an ED waiting six hours to get seen and getting an astronomical bill that will put you in debt for years! I bet if you asked most American's they could not handle the financial cost of a major illness or accident. I mean the denial of the defibrillator was with Cigna health care from Disney which was considered at the time the best health insurance one could get in Orange/Osceola county! With a major Illness you'd be suprised how fast you go through that 2 million coverage not to mention all of the co-pays! I've had to put off many of my doctor appointments simply because I can't afford $20 co-pay. Out of 11 doctors 2 will see me and let me make payments on the co-pay. The others well sorry but we can't see you without the money up front. I still haven't gone back to the ENT doc to find out about my thyroid biopsy! TBH another major illness would do me in financially even with government assistance.

It just amazes me how people who talk about the poor getting all of this money and insurance are sorely mistaken. You don't get enough to survive on and the "insurance" if you can call it that is chitty at best non-existant at worse because maybe 2% of doctors will accept the insurance. Oh sure we get "insurance" but you have to drive 3 hours to find a doctor that will take it! Then they usually are those that are about to lose their license!

I think our answer lies in affordable preventive medicine!

Mary

You have a good case but not a reason to put everyone in debt! You're not in the category that I an talking about to begin with. If you fit in the 52% of Americans that don't pay Income Tax and also the 7 to 8% that don't have proper healthcare and have a terminal or major lingering illness there should be a program for just those few.

Don't force me and fine me to have a certain "kind" of dictated Health Insurance! And for God Sakes don't make me or expect me to pay for the dead beats out there not working and on the gravy train. Get off your lazy arse and get a job! Is what I would tell them!

[Toogoofy317]

Do you "know" one dead beat on this "Gravy Train"!?!?!?!??!?!?  Tell me about him and what makes him a dead beat. And on average these "dead beats" get $500-$600 a month to live on. I live in subsdiized living and guess how much rent is $720 I'm in the hole most months before I even buy food.  I do pay taxes my friend I have since 15 and I pay into medicare and social security because although I'm disabled I don't get enough money to live that "good Life" everyone so talks about that those on disability have! I tell you what I'll trade my heart problem for just about any job that pays the bills. I pray you never get sick because you will sing a different story I can assure you.  Just because your healthy today doesn't make you healthy tomorrow!

I never said that government should run the health care industry I said that a mandatory yearly physical ( I.e you don't have it you get fined) that the government pays for. Our biggest expenditures is taking care of heart disease and cancer so if preventitive care is rendered that reduces down time by the patient and money expended. I also don't believe the government should pay for the reprucussions of our bad habits. You won't quit smoking I don't want to pay for treating your throat and lung cancers. The one thing I detest is people not taking care of their bodies it is a temple that God made for you and you should treat it that way!

BTW today is the anniversary of Medicare's implementation! 

Mary

[JB848]

Mary? We are talking about the same thing from different perspectives is all. I just lost my Father to a horrible disease so I know. He had medical insurance and paid a little out of pocket too. What I was saying is...I work, I bust my arse, I take care of my kids and family. Don't make me pay for someone not willing to do that. That is not fair to me or my kids. That health care system would take money out of their mouths. And yes I know "Dead Beats" and "Gravy Train" drinkers. Spend one day in Trenton , NJ and you would get sick to your stomach.

While you are busting your arse (which I know you do too) these people are out there smoking name brand cigarettes watching you go to work from their porch behind a nice car, name the brand, it's broken.

The other day I was at a Supermarket chain with my daughter buying all generic brands and when I went to check out the person in front of me had...(Get this) Steaks, PorkChops, name brand of what ever you name it! It came to over $300 and she paid with food stamps and got $80 cash back? WTF? I served in the military for over 10 years? What makes her special over me? I dunno? The system is broke. Fix the system before you create another.

[jserio]

not everyone who uses food stamps is a freeloader. i worked my ass off until i got laid off "due the economical crisis." got a wife and 3 kids to support and no jobs around here. so i'm going back to school. between my unemployment and student loan money, we barely get by, sometimes end up behind. i'm not saying fraud in regards to foodstamps, medicaid etc doesn't happen, i'm just saying that those services are there to help you get back on your feet when you've suffered a major setback. not everyone using those services is a freeloader. 

[yamahonkawazuki]

TG look at the world health organisation for their opinion on the US system.  mary i agree with you as well, cept i have NO healthcare, in order for me to get medicaid, i have to have cancer, or draw a check for eon reason or another,  ( or have had doen so in the past), be female, , or be female with children. i dont have cancer that i know of. ( runs in family hard tho. might have kidney problems. contributing to back issues.  who knows. but cannot get help from anybody. i have to save up 250 to get seen by a private doc. aka a PCP, im willing to do this. cause i fear the reason behind my issues. only help i get is wiht my insulin. per month. if not id be paying 85 PER BOTTLE per month. im running on charity for my insulin pump supplies ( normal rotation for a setting change is 3 days, i have to stretch it out to a week. to live. i swear my legs look like the arms of a heroin junkie. ( track marks anyone? BUT according to the wording of the healthcare bill, there IS a rationing body. which will decide WHO gets what and for how long. mary it would affect both you and me, and others wiht chronic illnesses/diseases, im still reading through this bill. and its various iterations now. none of which make me comfratable after the Universal system starts, there will be no public option. aka those who have no private insurance , WILL have to take hte govt option. ( also contained wihtin bill ) we need help with our systyem, i agree wholeheartedly. HOWEVER this option  stinks. it needs work. doctors spend a small fortune on insurance for lawsuits. many of whihc are bullshit. ( some however are deserved) even in a bs lawsuit. a doc still has  to retain legal counsel, to defend his/herself. there are times i feel so bad im tempted to laod my weapon and go rob a bank or Cstore to get into the penal system. hell they get better care than i do. if congress wants a good idea of how social security HELPS those who are on it. they need to try it out. but htey wont. cause once one is elected there., they get NO COST healthcare for life. as well as salary too. BOTH sides need to negotiate. not one side saying take ti or leave it.  teh waste of money in this admin is rediculous. ( past admins as well ya know) but shaZam! spending money to teach chinese women how to drink?. how hte hell does that STIMULATE THIS economy? ( there are thousands of other examples. ( im going through thab till line by line

[Toogoofy317]

I never once said this was the right option did I? I'm just saying what we got now is severely broken and you can attest to that more than I can. Did you ever get through to interfaith. I'm at the point of saying brink your sick a$$ down here a doc at my church would be willing to help I'm sure of it! If not we got the clinic for the homeless who don't have right I.D and such I used to volunteer for. If I knew I could get you in I'd go right back to volunteering to help you get seen.

It's hard to believe there are worst places than Fl but it's true I'm sure!

Mary

[JB848]

Well I'll have to agree there are some things in "Our" system that needs to be "FIXED" but it's still tons better then Canada and Great Britain's as attested by their own people! Socialized programs are inherently flawed and destined to fail!

[trumpetguy]

 I love the fact we've finally elected a black president.  I hate the fact he's a Marxist.

And with that statement your credibility just went out the window.  Obama is a centrist Democrat.  He pisses me off because he acts so conservative.  He kept Bush's Defense Secretary.  He continued Bush's policy of protecting dumbass business leaders from their own disastrous policies.  To call him "marxist" is to reveal your own lack of understanding of both Obama AND Marxism.

This medical bill does not socialize medicine.  It doesn't affect you if you have insurance.  Even if sixty GOP email forwards say it does.

Our medical system is fine IF YOU HAVE INSURANCE OR LOTS OF MONEY.  It sucks if you don't.  Our system doesn't revolve around caring for sick people, it revolves around money. PERIOD.  We have some great facilities, no doubt.  Why are they not treating sick Americans who need their help?

Infant mortality has to do with prenatal care and birthing and little else.  Healthier lifestyles are going to make some difference, but there's not that much difference between American?Canadian/British lifestyles.  Lack of adequate routine care also affects life expectancy statistics.

[jserio]

i think Mary made a good point, more preventative actions in regards to our health would actually be cheaper in the long run i think. and we'd be healthier as a nation i'd imagine.