Water in my engine?!!?

[Briggs]

I am hoping anyone can help or relate to this problem. I have a 89 GS w/ a k&N pod filter on it, and it seams that every time it rains the bike is real hard to start and when it does get running if i give it any throttle it dies. After about 10 min of idlling it will accept 1/10 throttle. When the bike will get to 4000rpm before dieing I will take it for a drive at about 3500. Slowly after driving say 2-3 miles it will come to life. I have looked at the plugs and I am positive they have WATER on them. It seams to me that water is getting in my intake somehow. All of my manifolds are tight and basically the only place it could enter is in the filter.

Is this a commen problem? Does anyone else have this same problem? Anyone have any suggextions on how to fix this?

Thanks

[JamesG]

Normally the tank and frame should protect the filters and intake from getting wet enough to affect them.

Either you live in a tropical rain forest or the hose that is supposed to be on the tank cap drain, which is conviently located right above the carbs, is missing. When it rains, the water collects in the depression around the gas cap and goes down that tube and onto your K&N.

Park under cover or replace that drain hose.

[KevinC]

Hmmm. I had K&N pods on my BMW R100 oppsed airhead twin. They hang out beside the bike, right in all the rain. I never had any problem. I sincerely doubt water is getting in through the filters.

The engine makes water when it runs, especially if it is running real rich. That could be what you see on the plugs, although they should be way too hot for liquid water to remain on them.

I would suspect an electrical issue. Engines aren't bothered by even considerable amounts of liquid water through the intake. Electrical things hate even moisture.

[dmp221]

I would suspect an electrical issue. Engines aren't bothered by even considerable amounts of liquid water through the intake. Electrical things hate even moisture.

I agree with Kevin.  I had a sputtering/coughing/slowly dying issue last summer one night coming home in a horrible, torrential rain, splashing thru lake-size puddles.  Next morning the bike started and ran fine.
I did, however, use some waterproof jelly around the tops of the plugs and wires.  Couldn't hurt.  Even spraying and wiping down with WD-40 may help, and if it does, next step is to suspect the plug wires and maybe replace them.  Good luck.

[Blueknyt]

agreed, carbs arnt botherd too much from water outside, but after having a good down poor for about an hour, i started the bike and rolled about 20 feet to find myself running on 1 cyl past  1/8 throttle. nothing sucks worse then trying to limp home 11 miles at 20 mph  and most of it is highway after 11pm at night. got it home turned the last corner and the 2nd cyl woke up.  i found alittle water in float bowls when i got home. Np got em cleared, going to work next day it happens again outa the blue. (brought screw driver with me this time) found lots more water. i would seem the Keylock for the gascap leaks water in when rain is heavy enough. i emptyed about 3 full oz between the 2 days and it only rained once. since then i cover the tank with a platic bag when parked in open

[KevinC]

I don't think it is the lock leaking. If you kink the drain hose (the one that commes off the bottom of the tank), water from around the filler will build up and drain into the tank via the vent. It's designed to let air in, but water will go in as well if it gets deep enough around the filler. I'd check that.

There shouldn't be any way for water to get into the tank through the key hole.

Water in the tank will definitely make it run like crap, but not just when it's wet.

[makin'due]

After 9" of rain I experienced my first trouble with water in the tank.  I'm assuming that the drain had clogged enough over the years to cause problems in heavy rains.  I siphoned about 12oz of water out of my tank with a small tube attached to a steel rod.  

My suggestion to you...  Check you tank for water...  It's more dense than the gas so It'll be sitting at the bottom.  You could also check your float bowls by draining the gas into a bucket and looking for water there.  That might help you narrow down your problem.

Matt

[Blueknyt]

water gets in, i know this cuz gas gets out thatway on an endo

[KevinC]

If gas gets out of the filler lid, your vent valve may be stuck, or there is something wrong with the seal on the filler. If you take the filler cap off, the vent valve should rattle when you shake it. If it is stuck open, then water can easily get in.

There is a one-way ball valve in the filler lid that is supposed to stop fuel from leaking out when the bike is tipped, but let air in normally.

[Arpee]

Have a friend with a similar problem.  She's basically had to tape up around the cap, as it appears water is getting in the tank via the filler cap.  The other issue with water in the motor comes from not running the engine long enough during your jaunts.  Condensation builds up inside the motor and needs to be blown out by a nice, long (45-60 minute) ride or at least a longer warm-up period.

[Briggs]

With some of your good suggestions, and after close examination I have come to the conclusion that water is getting from the vent/overflow tube that runs from the filler cap area to the top of the carbs. Water can very easily get in there, and I am sure it is what is causing all my problems. All I can think is that maybe there is sopozed to be some soret of gasket there. I do know that on some models the tube that runs from tank to the carbs, might go to a emission control box. (for lack of better term) If I had this box I would have this problem. Although I would have alot of extra junk on the bike I would really want.

Lesson to learn: Be carefull of water getting in through the vent/atmospheric/overflow tube.

[Briggs]

Also I want to add that I tested this by disconecting the tube last weekend when it rained. I had no problems. Thats all...

[mjm]

Also I want to add that I tested this by disconecting the tube last weekend when it rained. I had no problems. Thats all...

Install a longer tube so it drains past the carbs rather than on the carbs.

[KevinC]

The drain tube is supposed to go all the way down past the engine, just in front of the rear wheel. It's hard to imagine how water would get in the carbs if the drain tube is on there.

The stock tube has a couple of 90 degree turns molded into it to maneuver past everything.

[Baker]

Engines hate water getting sucked in, even small amounts.  Have you ever seen a hydrolocked engine?  A single cup of water making it into the cylinder of an engine is enough to completely destroy a 1.8 liter motor.  I race imports and have seen this happen quite a few times to people with cold air intakes that hit deep puddle.  We actually once did it intentionally just to see how much water an engine can take.  Water simply will not compress, its not going to happen.  when the the piston is on the compression stroke it is sealed shut and tries to compress the air to super heat it, water won't go anywhere and something has to give.  Most of the time your piston will break, it may bend or completely crack the piston rod, its very possible to completely crack your block this way.  

basically it has to be an electrical problem or something else, you would know very quickly if water got into your engine

[KevinC]

You can quite safely pour water directly into the intake of an engine when running. I've done it many times. It was trick my father taught me to de-carbon an engine. You have to keep the revs up so it doesn't stall, or it will be a Buddha Loves You to start.

WWII fighter aircraft used water injection for war-emergency power settings. A little bit of water in the intake of any engine will help the power, and make it run cooler at real high power outputs. I think they still make water injection systems for drag racers.

I can't imagine how you would get enough water into an intake to cause hydro-lock in an engine. I guess it's possible, but I have poured kettles full of water directly down the carb of many old GM cars without any issues.

[Baker]

I'll find the pics later today but i have pictures of what approximatley one cup of water poured into the intake of a civic did.  they aren't pretty.

[The Buddha]

By that argument .... you can hydrolock with gasoline as well... So I guess you should not let gas anywhere near your motor. Running and idle up and I'd say warmed up motor will take quite a bit of water and not stall out, or have any ill effect except the aforementioned de carbonisation... and well a little carbon is good so you might not want to remove it all. However you have to send it in via the air or gas intake... (vaccum or float bowl). In any of those cases you cannot hydrolock. cos the motor will stall if you send in too much and you cannot add more into a stalled motor cos it wont be taking in air or gas. You will hydrolock it if you took spark plugs out and poured in water and then cranked it ... That is not normal rain operation though.
Cool.
Srinath.

[KevinC]

Guess I'll go home at lunch and pour some water in my Accord.

Let's see at 2000 rpm, that is 16 intake strokes per second. If I pour 30 cc per second in the intake, that is 1.9 cc per cylinder. It is a 2.4 liter displacement engine, or 600 cc per cylinder. If I assume a 10:1 compression ratio, that is 60 cc of volume at TDC. So if I fill 1.9 cc of that volume with incompressible water, the compression ratio goes from 10:1 to 10.33:1.

I think I'll chance it...

Let's assume to get hydro-lock, you would need to fill 1/4 of the volume at TDC. That would be 15 cc of water in a cylinder. At 2000 rpm, that would take about 250 cc per second in the intake, or 8.8 oz per second, 5.28 gallons per minute. That is a lot of water! And that still only raises the compression ratio to 13.3, which probably isn't enough to cause a problem. You would probably need more than 500 cc per second, or over a quart per second to get to hydro-lock. And if the rpm is higher, it would take even more.

I suppose if you are running an open intake on a small, high compression engine, and splash it though a deep puddle, it could conceivably happen. But certainly pouring a couple of quarts down an intake over a period of a minute will not do anything except remove the carbon. That used to be a problem when the fuels were dirtier, and the carbon would remain glowing after the combustion. The engines would run like a glow plug engine, and you couldn't shut them off.

Engines don't mind water, but everything in moderation!

[Baker]

http://www.hondaswap.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12544&hl=hydrolocked

Thats a link to one of my friendswho hit a puddle in his car, not sure how much water he sucked up but there was about 4 cups in it when broken down

as far as gasoline goes if it is compressed that tightly it can do the same thing or if it is compressed enough with enough speed it will ignite (diesel engines operate exactly on that theory)