This Vs. That...car stuff...

[makenzie71]

Anyway I'm faced with an interesting proposition.  I found a wide-body 1991 GT Four with the interior partially disassembled, but mostly intact (and actually pretty clean).  I think I can get the car for a song, but it has sat for several years and needs a harmonic balancer and an alternator, at the least.  The guy who has it has never seen it run...he took it in on trade for some work he did on another car so there actually could be other underlying issues.

What I have currently is a 1991 RX-7 (N/A).  It needs body work and the whole dash and driver's seat are trashed...the rest of the interior is pretty solid.  The engine runs great, has awesome compression and pulls hard...but I have to pull the front cover off and replace a bunch of gaskets.  This car has also sat for a few years so it, too, needs a good cleaning and a big update as well.

The idea is that I'm going to use one to fund the other...either by parting or selling the other out right.  I'm so in Love with RX-7's that it's not funny and I would have a hard time recouping my investment in the RX.  I've wanted a turbo Celica for as long as I can remember, though, but never even tried to find one because they're just this side of imaginary in the US (only a few thousand of them here).

Opinions?

[yamahonkawazuki]

AYE what a quandry Eh?, im working on an 88 rx7 vert. sold a few pieces of its 13b, ( wasnt worth the rebuild cost), sold both rotors, the eccentric shaft, and hte rear rotor housing. front housing was thrashed so im going to use it in a sculpture of some sort, i f you part out that rx, lmk if ive not grafted in the v6 i have for it, might be looking for a good running rotary. yeah those celicas are on my " dream list as well " and are QUITE rare here. ive only seen one. ( got to drive it back from auction for friends car lot. didnt sit on lot for a day, and POOF it was gone lol ( funnest drive ive ever had though )

[kyle_99_gtp]

those awd celicas are pretty sweet for what they are, but they arent the best looking cars out there.  a turbo'ed 2003 gt-s in dark blue with the trd appearance package (minus the spoiler) would be a different story...(exactly what i wanted before i got my gtp)

personally, i'd keep the rx-7 and drop a ls1 in it, that'll put a smile on your face anytime.

[dohabee]

A friend of mine had an rx-7 with an ls-6 in it.

It was actually kind of ridiculous, he could light up the rear wheels in pretty much every gear.

He lasted about a year before he totaled it.

[makenzie71]

V8 RX's are cool and all but have little to do with my predicament.  I'm not looking for a powerhouse...just a fun car.  If I stick with the RX, I'll be keeping the 13B.

[tt_four]

I have no idea what either of those cars are, but it sounds to me like you've already set your mind on the RX-7 being the better choice.

[makenzie71]

Technically I can't make up my mind over which to keep until I can examine exactly what all needs to go into the Celica, but I am already leaning toward that one if it pans out.  I'm not asking the internet to tell me what to do lol...I just like to hear opinions.

[Porkchop]

I've wanted a turbo Celica for as long as I can remember, though, but never even tried to find one because they're just this side of imaginary in the US (only a few thousand of them here).

To me, this says it all.  Follow the dream.  If you don't get the Celica, you'll be telling your grand kids "I have always wanted one but passed up the chance".

- Porkchop

[yamahonkawazuki]

yeah , i agree with porkchop here

[makenzie71]

Lol the thing is that if I go for the Celica I'll be telling my kid about the RX...actually, I already do that considering a let go of a MINT (but bad motor) 1981 GTU for loose change a few years ago.  I also say the same about my P-Type, my 944, etc, etc....lol.  Can't get away from that argument.

[yamahonkawazuki]

no matter what you do, there will be a regret or three

[intergalactic]

Did the current RX sit for a while? Because that kills seals. It runs for a while, then they crap out. Or so I hear and so I have experienced. Of course this was a low mileage 83 12A motor.

I'd take the 'yota, personally.

[ohgood]

you know, cars suck (just an opinion).

now wait a second before you pass judgement...

they have what, 5, maybe 10 thousand parts ? yes, a bolt on an engine is a part... you'd be pissed if it fell off = it's a part

i was reading about the new prius today. ya, i know, it's not really a GREEN vehicle , but check out the innovations:

1) solar panels in the roof. solar panels that circulate the air while you're working. solar panels that can POWER THE AC, and is remotely controlled, so you can tell the car to 'wake up' and cool off, all running off battery power- which incidentally has been charged by the sun all day. this solar panel also doubles as a huge moon roof.

2) pick-a-spot parking. it radars the area and lets you touch a screen to decide where to park, then does it for you

3) regenerative braking. this has made sense for sooooo long, but no one uses it

4) electric motors for propulsion. so few parts involved, 100% torque at 1 rpm to infinity. very good reliability. very few maintenance issues.

5) ability to power your house / tools / whatever

6) it gets 50 freaking miles to a gallon of gas, assuming you're not running in 'electric only' mode

7) electric only mode. i'd love to commute to work and then plug in when i get home that night... for like $10 a month instead of $100



now then, i know innovation is expensive, and the ICE is proven itself... but man. why don't we have flying cars, 100 MPG sedans, and trucks that are turbo deisels everywhere ? why don't we use electric motors for propulsion instead of eneergy  wasting transmissions ? why can't we use the motors to regenerate power when braking ?

and lastly, most importantly, why the hell can't we have simple, cheap electic motorcycles that have a 100 mile range ? i'd commute the hell oout of one of those....

no carbs (helllllllllllllo happy me!), no oil, no gears, no noise, almost zero maintenance, no filters, no valves, no (ok, almost no) bearings, seals, gaskets, rebuilding, etc


ok, finally, i'd sell those projects and buy a runner. just cause cars suck, and the individuality of a car only lasts until another pulls along side.

cars suck.

[yamahonkawazuki]

prius, although nice, is useless to me. cannot move much with it

[DoD#i]

Well, I agree about cars (& trucks) sucking. Mostly cash out of the wallet.

Of course, your fancy hybrid has even MORE parts, since there's BOTH a gasoline engine and electrics, and generators and wires and electronic controllers - none of which are super efficient (and the combination of a bunch of them is even less so), so the net result of running a motor to run a generator to run an electric motor is less efficient than running a motor to run a transmission. Most hybrids don't, because of that fact - so they lug a transmission around too, and have all of its parts. An 80% efficient electric motor is "very" efficient - couple that to a "very" efficient 80% generator and you have a whopping 64% efficiency - ignoring any further losses in-between. Not hard for a regular transmission to beat those numbers. Diesel-electric is used on the things it's used on for many reasons, and efficiency is not one of them, AFAIK.

Item 2 sounds like a very bad idea - When that crap goes haywire 10 years down the road, you are in deep doo-doo, and your car is collided as well as having a system that will cost too much to repair out of whack. Not to mention supporting idiots who can't drive being behind the wheel.

Item 3 is a great idea when you have much better capacitors than we have now. With batteries, it's often an engineering wash (or penalty) to add the weight, bulk and complexity for the amount of power actually recoverable, in practice. It was done with flywheels 30 years ago, but never made economic sense (may also have failed crash safety issues - and the hybrid batteries add new wrinkles to that area too).

Items 4 & 7  bring with them batteries, which are the car-makers new best friend in planned obsolescence. When the $8000 battery on your hybrid worth $6000 goes bad, it's junkyard time. That won't be 15-20 years - it might well be long before my problem with item 2 comes up. And this for fuel milage that a non-hybrid hatchback from 15 years ago could manage.

As for "lastly", once again, the batteries are the limiting factor. By the time you have enough batteries for 100 miles of range, you have to add more batteries to account for hauling the batteries weight that far, and the bike weighs (e.g.) 1500 lbs, and is left at the light by a Yugo retrofitted with a hampster wheel for power.

Battery technology miracles are primarily confined to a range of 2-5 years in the future, for the purposes of attracting investor money. Most of them stay right there for 10-15 years or more.

[ohgood]

Well, I agree about cars (& trucks) sucking. Mostly cash out of the wallet.

Of course, your fancy hybrid has even MORE parts, since there's BOTH a gasoline engine and electrics, and generators and wires and electronic controllers - none of which are super efficient (and the combination of a bunch of them is even less so), so the net result of running a motor to run a generator to run an electric motor is less efficient than running a motor to run a transmission. Most hybrids don't, because of that fact - so they lug a transmission around too, and have all of its parts. An 80% efficient electric motor is "very" efficient - couple that to a "very" efficient 80% generator and you have a whopping 64% efficiency - ignoring any further losses in-between. Not hard for a regular transmission to beat those numbers. Diesel-electric is used on the things it's used on for many reasons, and efficiency is not one of them, AFAIK.

Item 2 sounds like a very bad idea - When that crap goes haywire 10 years down the road, you are in deep doo-doo, and your car is collided as well as having a system that will cost too much to repair out of whack. Not to mention supporting idiots who can't drive being behind the wheel.

Item 3 is a great idea when you have much better capacitors than we have now. With batteries, it's often an engineering wash (or penalty) to add the weight, bulk and complexity for the amount of power actually recoverable, in practice. It was done with flywheels 30 years ago, but never made economic sense (may also have failed crash safety issues - and the hybrid batteries add new wrinkles to that area too).

Items 4 & 7  bring with them batteries, which are the car-makers new best friend in planned obsolescence. When the $8000 battery on your hybrid worth $6000 goes bad, it's junkyard time. That won't be 15-20 years - it might well be long before my problem with item 2 comes up. And this for fuel milage that a non-hybrid hatchback from 15 years ago could manage.

As for "lastly", once again, the batteries are the limiting factor. By the time you have enough batteries for 100 miles of range, you have to add more batteries to account for hauling the batteries weight that far, and the bike weighs (e.g.) 1500 lbs, and is left at the light by a Yugo retrofitted with a hampster wheel for power.

Battery technology miracles are primarily confined to a range of 2-5 years in the future, for the purposes of attracting investor money. Most of them stay right there for 10-15 years or more.

i'll agree with the issues of adding complex systems to an already overly complex car.

as far as "in x amount of years all that stuff is going to die (or similar summary)" well, i don't think so. the electrics on cars are the parts that last the life of it. life being, ohhh, 15-25 or more years. it's the mechanical parts that actually wear out. maybe it's just me, but i can't recall having a conversation about the wiring harness exploding because it over heated. car makers have gotten -really- good with electronics, since it costs a ton to replace anything on warrantee. transmissions and engines are expensive too, yes, but they have a pre-determined life of around 200,000 miles. anything more means you won't need to buy another car from them... and we just can't have that

i should have pointed out my fondness for a pure electric vehicle, instead of focusing on the current hybrid trend. you're pretty right there about it being silly to add more parts. expensive OEM - only parts. yep, they will definitely stick it to you for the costs.

see, in my little world of driving, we don't generally leave a 10 mile radius of home. 10. t e n. an electric car with a 100 mile range would be fantastic. only -one- electric motor, and that consists of oh... ONE moving part. ok, you have a throttle position sensor, or variable resistor, that will likely fail sometime in the future. bearing tech and grease tech has come a really really long way. provided someone puts grease on a nipple on schedule, i could imagine your car's electric motor lasting to your retirement.

ok, there is the argument about range, vacations, traveling in a car, etc:

rent one !

no really, you can rent a brand new car for around $100 for a long weekend. i'd rather trash someone else's car on a rainy country road that i'm not familiar with than one i actually -own- and rely on daily. think of it as disposable transport. the rental is trashed. oh well. good think i got the insurance for $8 extra. pffffft.


give the battery tech a while to catch up. ya, i know, it seems like forever, but there hasn't been any -reason- to make it better since the ICE was invented. all you needed was a couple 30-40 amps to start the car, then it went back to taking up one cubic foot (or so) of space under your hood. not really sexy or interesting from a research standpoint.

imagine a motorbike that has a quick-change battery pack with a 100 mile range. pull into a station, drop the discharged set, and plug in a new one. pay the guy $10 for the charge... and continue on. sure, it won't likely happen any time soon... but it would so rock. not owning the battery, and only needing to pay a charging fee for a 'new' one when neeeded.

*****

as far as the auto-makers hoping to stiff you for a battery pack if/when it dies... ok, sure. because they have -never- stiffed you on any other OEM-only part. like a driveshaft, oem-wheels, oem-mirrors, oem relays (10x the non oem stuff) or an oil change. sure, i know you can change your own oil, but the dealer has -special- oil and service... THATS why it costs $59 for the service.

don't take it wrong, i'm not trying to sound belittling or smartass-ed. just wondering and dreaming in text.

[makenzie71]

Even though it has nothing to do with my topic here, I will mention that there's nothing reliable about a Prius.  They are hard to work on and hard to own.  The cost of just the PRODUCTION of a single Prius has a large environmental footprint than the production of an original diesel powered military issue Hummer AND operating that Hummer on the road for approximately one year. Then there's the price tag, which is a staggering $23,000 on average, for a car that isn't very reliable, only seats four, and only has a combined interior passenger and cargo volume of 112 cubic feet.  Yes, it gets 45~55mpg on the highway but, at the price tag, it would take a little over four years to really start saving any money when you consider that the Chevy Aveo has a little more interior volume, has a little more power, has a higher crash test rating, and cost HALF as much which still getting 45~50mpg on the highway.

I just hate the Prius...and any other electric powered "hybrid". They're a gimmick whose cause is self defeating considering the extremely high cost of manufacturing, the environmental footprint, and the low reliability.  The Prius, for example...there's not that many of them out there, really, but I've still managed to stop to help two stranded motorists standing beside their broken Prius.  Green stuff is great stuff and I love it, but buyers out there need to do more research before they try to jump into something like a "green" vehicle.  Right now, no matter what anyone tells you, fossil fuels are still the most efficient means to get from point A to point B. Nuclear power will be the only realistic means to get past it until they find a way to extract hydrogen that uses less energy than they expend during hydrolysis, but splitting an atom on a small scale really isn't in our grasp just yet either.

Ultimately, a good deal, regardless of it's something as simple as buying a generic food over a name-brand or something as big as trying buy a green automobile, is only a good deal if you get more for the expense...and the Prius just doesn't do that.  Right now, the Aveo is the best for being conservative, economical, and environmental...thought Ford is saying they're going to bring the Fiesta back to the U.S. and that may change things around a bit.

Again, though, none of this has ANYTHING to do with my topic.   Not even remotely.  Thanks.

[DoD#i]

Moderators - wanna split this off so poor Mak doesn't have to put up with it?

Hardly the only OEM stick-it-to you part, sure. But based on my experiences with supposedly advanced battery technology in things like portable power tools, the big fancy battery pack is one that is prone to both short life and extremely high replacement cost. Once out of warrantee (and only a couple of states are mandating a "long useful life" warrantee on those) dead battery will far exceed value of car. 8 year old cars going to the junkyard is a carmaker's wet dream, but kinda sucks for people like me who never have and probably never will buy a new car - even with "cash for clunkers" it simply didn't make economic sense (and then my clunker clunked out).

OTOH, 20-70 mile range has been achievable on electric-only using (relatively) cheap, available, heavy golf cart lead-acid batteries for years - but mostly in "you have to build it yourself" territory. By tossing the fuel powerplant, the weight of the batteries can be managed. There are a few fringe manufacturers out there, but most live for such a short period that you will at least be in "maintain it yourself" territory very shortly, even if you don't have to build it, and if they used any special/custom parts, you'll be hunting for them when they fail.

As for wiring harness "explosions", google for vehicles catching on fire while parked. Ford had a problem with some stupidly arranged cruise control module, but I'm pretty sure that chevy and dodge managed the same sort of problem, from some of the research I did while looking for the next truck after my rusted out ford died (without catching on fire - no cruise control). And engine/transmission computers certainly die, (often from poor or deliberately bad design, such as not being fully waterproof and being located under the heater core, or in an area prone to trap water once leaves get onto the car and plug up the drains that are not designed to either pass leaves or be easily cleaned).

In the other direction, (I did a lot of "off-grid home power solar" research for years, due to what the power company told me 6 years ago, but when I revisited them after figuring the total bill for that option, I got grid connected after all) people have done things as simple as putting a solar panel (big one) on top of their fuel car and disconnecting the alternator, resulting in a considerable fuel milage increase. Probably doesn't work too well if driving all night, but as I recall the person who reported trying this got through most of the year, finally having to reconnect in the short and snowy days of winter in the northeast. Adding an extra battery or two would extend the option some more, and if you fiddled with it you could add smarts (but violate KISS) to cut the alternator back in when the battery got too low automatically. Probably more modern computerized cars would freak out about this, though.

[tussey]

Go watch "Who killed the Electric Car" then you will realize why we don't have automotive innovation. The oil companies (Shell, BP, Exxon-Mobil) spend LOTS of money to keep the status quo. Lots of people would lose money if we used electric cars.

Short Answer: Human greed. 

you know, cars suck (just an opinion).

now wait a second before you pass judgement...

they have what, 5, maybe 10 thousand parts ? yes, a bolt on an engine is a part... you'd be pissed if it fell off = it's a part

i was reading about the new prius today. ya, i know, it's not really a GREEN vehicle , but check out the innovations:

1) solar panels in the roof. solar panels that circulate the air while you're working. solar panels that can POWER THE AC, and is remotely controlled, so you can tell the car to 'wake up' and cool off, all running off battery power- which incidentally has been charged by the sun all day. this solar panel also doubles as a huge moon roof.

2) pick-a-spot parking. it radars the area and lets you touch a screen to decide where to park, then does it for you

3) regenerative braking. this has made sense for sooooo long, but no one uses it

4) electric motors for propulsion. so few parts involved, 100% torque at 1 rpm to infinity. very good reliability. very few maintenance issues.

5) ability to power your house / tools / whatever

6) it gets 50 freaking miles to a gallon of gas, assuming you're not running in 'electric only' mode

7) electric only mode. i'd love to commute to work and then plug in when i get home that night... for like $10 a month instead of $100



now then, i know innovation is expensive, and the ICE is proven itself... but man. why don't we have flying cars, 100 MPG sedans, and trucks that are turbo deisels everywhere ? why don't we use electric motors for propulsion instead of eneergy  wasting transmissions ? why can't we use the motors to regenerate power when braking ?

and lastly, most importantly, why the hell can't we have simple, cheap electic motorcycles that have a 100 mile range ? i'd commute the hell oout of one of those....

no carbs (helllllllllllllo happy me!), no oil, no gears, no noise, almost zero maintenance, no filters, no valves, no (ok, almost no) bearings, seals, gaskets, rebuilding, etc


ok, finally, i'd sell those projects and buy a runner. just cause cars suck, and the individuality of a car only lasts until another pulls along side.

cars suck.

[yamahonkawazuki]

lol, nice read all. but even if we ALL went to all electric, we still owe much of what we use on a daily basis to the petro industry