Bent Washer behind clutch plates??

[roughspanker]

Hello GS'ers, my name is John and I'm new to the forum.

I own an 07 GS500F, been riding the GS for about a month now. The previous owner of the bike was new to riding so I wouldn't be surprised if he made most of the damage to the bike (even though I abuse Suzi regularly)

Last week thursday I had a night out practicing wheelies. I made a lot of progress, after about an hour and a half I found the balance point, I just didn't yet have the confidence to keep it up for more than a few seconds. Just a note, I was revving to about 8-9k rpm until I gained confidence leaning back, then I was popping even higher wheelies at 7k. After the 1 1/2 hour wheelie session I rode home with no problems. The next morning going to work the bike was acting up. The symptoms - When I accelerate quickly by using a medium/a lot of throttle the engine speed/rpm shoots up but the bike does not, and it takes a while for the bike to catch up to speed. Also the bike has trouble getting up to speed in first. SO I rode home from work very slowly and made sure I didn't make the gear slip. I parked the bike last week and today I took apart the clutch.

Story of the clutch: Some tiny pieces of clutch on the plates (I expected as much dirt, it's not as badas the picture I saw here - http://carlschiel.com/gs500_clutch.aspx ) but nothing in the basket. Note: It's my first time taking the crankcase off any bike so you can imagine how much I know about bike repair. I've never seen clutch/friction plates before so I have nothing to compare them to, I'm going to see if I can measure them for thickness.

Now one thing I couldn't determine by looking at the bike but might be a big issue is the following:
Behind all the clutch plates there is a large 19mm bolt which I suspect holds the basket assembly. Behind this bolt there is a washer or something, on Suzi the washer was bent onto the bolt such that one side of the hexagonal bolt was completely covered horizontally (looking from the top of the bolt) and again if you are looking from the top of the bolt it would be covered about halfway vertically by the bent washer (imagine a 2d grid view of a bolt from its top if you are looking down at one of the 6 sides). It looked like the bike had done this, I can't imagine why someone would bend the washer. If the washer was bent by the bike that means something might be horribly wrong and the washer which is now bent onto the bolt is still creating some kind of friction or problem in the bike. If someone bent it onto the bolt (which I don't know if is even possible) then maybe there is no issue with the washer and its not touching anything. I wish I could take a picture of all this but I have no camera. Ahh I just figured out how to explain better. On the last picture of that clutch dissasembly I posted ^^^^ you can see the middle of all that holds some kind of notched ring that looks like train tracks, not visible in the picture but behind that is a smooth washer type ring, and behind that I think would be the 19mm bolt and behind that is the washer. Hopefully after all that maybe someone can understand what I'm trying to say and I'll get some kind of feedback haha 

If I made any mistakes in the names of parts but I was clear enough that you could understand what I was saying I would be happy to learn the proper words for things    Also I was wondering if practicing wheelies for such a long time was a retarded idea, maybe next time I should only go out for half an hour or 20 minutes (or even less?) at a time so as not to burn the plates?? I really have no idea how any of this works hehe. Maybe I should order extra plates for the next time I destroy her?   I actually have no idea what kind of shape the plates are in, they look kind of dirtied by the oil, maybe burnt maybe not, but they are not blue (maybe a little bit on the gear teeth) so I can't tell how damaged they are. They look cloudy with goldish brown and brown and I suspect those are burns.

Thanks in advance for any input - John

[ineedanap]

The washer is supposed to be bent.  It's not like a regular washer.   It prevents the nut from loosening on its own.  

Welcome to GStwin and congratulations on your first post. 

[roughspanker]

I thought about it and I figured it was bent on purpose based on my observation that there was no moving part right where the bolt would be. I really had no idea why it was bent though, so thanks a lot for your answer, and that was quick too! Paranoia cleared!

It's like my clutch burned out over the period of 1.5 - 2 hours and I can't really compare the abuse I gave it that night to any other time. Also the bike was a starter bike for the previous rider for 2 years, I don't hesitate to push her to her limits either. Hard to make theories about what happened with my mininal experience though.

Anyone have an opinion on my theory that if a clutch is abused constantly over a long period of time it will burn out much quicker than if it is abused over the same amount of time but split into many short periods?  And what about if it involves dumping the clutch? I think it is reasonable to think that the springs took the brunt of the damage because of the nature of the abuse. The bike was pushed to its limit, overheated for much too long, and the springs appear to me to be the weakest link in the clutch when it comes to prolonged overheating.

And one last question: I forgot which way the clutch plates came out of the assembly, could someone tell me if they are to go back in with the flat side or the rounded off side of the friction plates facing towards the bike or away? Also do they all face the same way? (while I was holding half of them seperate from the other half I forgot if I put them back the right way   ) And the black plates (known as clutch plates??) are the same on both sides right so it wouldn't matter which way those went in?

[roughspanker]

To repair my final question, do the steel plates (friction plates are the black fibrous ones??) go in with the flat side or the rounded side facing inwards?

[bill14224]

The #1 way people abuse this bike and others is to drag race and pop wheelies.  It's baaad for the clutch.  It'll last many years if you don't abuse it.

Minimum clutch plate thickness is 2.62 mm.  They should not be blued, glazed, smell burnt, or rounded-off.  If they are they need to be replaced as a set.  The friction area should be flat.  The plain plates should also not be blued from heat or warped.  If they are, they also need to be replaced as a set.

[qwertydude]

Wheelies=burnt clutches on bikes as weak at the GS. Get used to it. If you wanna continue popping wheelies find a wholesale supply of clutch plates and discs, and while your at it a bunch of engine components because the GS doesn't have a fancy dry sump oil system like the bigger bikes so you'll starve the engine of oil on extended wheelies.

Oh yeah I've taken apart a few clutch baskets already, on normally operated bikes the steel clutch discs should be shiny and metal like, a golden look means they've been heated up but not as hot as blue discs, also I never bothered to check is the golden color is glazing but likely it is. If your teeth on the inside of the discs were blue they were definitely burnt.

[roughspanker]

Answers much appreciated.

One last thing: From your response bill14224 I gather that there isn't supposed to be a natural bevel on the edge of one side of the steel plates and therefore they can go in either way. Is this right? And also can the fibre plates go in any way as well and in any order? I've read the cbr 900 clutch has a thick plate for the first and last clutch plates which must go in that order.

[Esteban]

As a little bit of engineering geekiness and with no foreknowledge of what washers are actually in a GS500 clutch, I assume that the ones you are describing are either
1. Wave washers http://mechanical-components.globalspec.com/learnmore/mechanical_components/springs/wave_washers
2. Belleville washers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belleville_washer

Hopefully your clutch isn't toast, I haven't even tried a wheelie and I doubt I'd be able to get the front end up... (6" 190 lbs)

[tt_four]

While using the clutch for wheelies is horrible for the clutch, I don't imagine you burned the thing out in an hour or two of messing with it. Most likely the previous owner spent some time doing the same thing, or was just rough on the clutch in general. Replace the plates and don't be too rough on it and it should last you a while at least. If it does wear out again, I'd just buy a cbr900rr 

[roughspanker]

Im 6'2 about 215 pounds maybe a bit more

As I mentioned before once I started leaning a bit I was popping all the way to balance point dumping at 7k rpm, I wouldnt be surprised if there are people who can tug it up at 5k, as I was only leaning back a tiny bit. I imagine that would take a lot of experience and therefore a lot of burnt clutches but it should be possible especially for lighter riders. It sounds terrible when you start off though, ripping her to 9k-9.5k and dumping really lets you know the bike is in pain, the price to pay I guess for beginners.

I don't know if I'll ever get a bike above 650cc, when I start racing track maybe I will but even then I can't see myself ever needing more power than a 600 race bike has. I don't get why it's so hard for people to understand that they won't have any control over a 900 or 1liter bike and they have absolutely no use for it other than showing off to people who don't know whats what. Maybe I could understand a bike like the SV1000 for the purpose of longevity.

Oh, and the washer might have been like those ones but I really don't think so. It was bent a full 90 degrees onto the bolt and I'm pretty sure it was all flat.

Hopefully on tuesday I find out that I have put the plates and springs in and sealed everything properly and find a working motorcycle.

[Dr.Sparkie]

one time i took apart my clutch basket because of slippage, only to find that my clutch bits were perfect. my cable was not correctly adjusted, and i felt like a dork.

[roughspanker]

one time i took apart my clutch basket because of slippage, only to find that my clutch bits were perfect. my cable was not correctly adjusted, and i felt like a dork.

Hehehe..

That reminds me, my clutch wasnt adjusted right either - coming out of a suzuki dealer tune up (right before I bought the bike), dont trust anything repairmen do. They also put too much oil in my engine. Clutch adjustment as I take it boosts longevity by quite a bit.

[ineedanap]

To repair my final question, do the steel plates (friction plates are the black fibrous ones??) go in with the flat side or the rounded side facing inwards?

Either.  I always make the flat side go in on all of them.  I don't know if I read that somewhere, or noticed that's how the factory did it, or just decided to do it that way...but that's how I always do it.  

[ineedanap]

As a little bit of engineering geekiness and with no foreknowledge of what washers are actually in a GS500 clutch, I assume that the ones you are describing are either
1. Wave washers http://mechanical-components.globalspec.com/learnmore/mechanical_components/springs/wave_washers
2. Belleville washers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belleville_washer

1. no
2. no

[roughspanker]

To repair my final question, do the steel plates (friction plates are the black fibrous ones??) go in with the flat side or the rounded side facing inwards?

Either.  I always make the flat side go in on all of them.  I don't know if I read that somewhere, or noticed that's how the factory did it, or just decided to do it that way...but that's how I always do it.  

Coolio

One last question about inserting the friction plates, is there any specific way they should go in? The suzuki parts dealer asked one of the techs and they said there was some sort of divot that should be aligned? Now I took this to mean that the large squared parts sticking off the friction plates should be aligned. It is so damned obvious that those should be aligned so I had to over complicate his answer in my head to mean there is some mark or protrusion that signals a certain way they should go in. Once again I'm being paranoid? Maybe he was even joking with me or really didn't know much about bikes.

[ineedanap]

Some bikes have semicircles cut into the center of some of the square fingers on the fibers (or whatever they they're called... the part of the fibers that touches the clutch basket).  If you have them they'd be obvious and you line them up.  

Other bikes have a stripe painted on the fingers (probably quality control at the factory) and you can usually find it and line it up.

Some bikes have a specific fibers for the first and last plate, but ours doesn't.  

Some racers burn up some of the plates.  In a pinch they'll take everything apart, scuff it up and swap the plates around...so mix away.  

There is no front or back to fibers...just the steels...so don't worry about what way they're facing when you put them in.