'GOD vs. SCIENCE' - good read

[annguyen1981]

'GOD vs SCIENCE'

An atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'

'Absolutely. '

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil..'


The professor grins knowingly.

'Aha! The Bible!

He considers for a moment.

'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent.


'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. 'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Er..yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student falters. 'From God'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then is evil.'

Again, the student has no answer.

'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'

'So who created them?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question.


'Who created them?' There is still no answer.


Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.

'Tell me,' he continues onto another student.

'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice betrays him and cracks..

'Yes, professor, I do.'

The professor stops pacing.

'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes'


'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his own.

'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

' Yes'.

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student ,obviously interested.

The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to exlain.


'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat,unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester.

'So what point are you making, young man?'

'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time.

'Flawed? Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.'

'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.'

The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?'

The class breaks out into laughter.

'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' 'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds,

'Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.

[Cal Price]

"A good read" Hmmm like a lot of fairy storys.

It is easy to invent people who you may not agree with and then put the dialog into their mouths and presto - you win the argument. You can make a case for anything if you can dictate the others guys words and actions. This is very like the way crackpot racist theory was put in "Mien Kampf"

Very few Atheists would go out seeking to "convert" others to their views, most of us respect honestly held religious views, in a way I suppose I actually wish I could believe in god and an afterlife, milk and honey etc, It must be very comforting, but neither you nor I can choose what we believe and I can't believe that.
In all honesty, as an Atheist, I don't have any issues with anyone who believes in whatever, not as individuals. Some of the so-called Churches worry me a bit especially those that dictate what "tithe" you should give them and how much you should save and then every so often come up with something for you to spend those savings on. I won't name them but there are three well known worldwide ones but if their followers are of sound mind and know what they are doing then it is their business not mine but to me it is simply a business. Religio-Biz if you like.

Back to the point, this "argument" against Atheism is even weaker than Pascal's wager, and before anyone mentions it I know I can't prove there is no god anymore than the Pope can prove there is no flying spagetti monster, to see how this works Google "Bertrand Russell's Teapot" and whilst you are on google try "Pascal's wager" as well.

I hope I have not offended anyone with genuine religious beliefs but I draw the line at being attacked with meaningless  pseudo arguments.

[The Buddha]

Well I believe that is called a straw man argument. I didn't read Mein Kampf. Sorry.

BTW several 100000000 mistakes there ...

There is no heat or cold. There is only temperature. Heat and cold are both feelings that senses tell us. To the small percentage of people who dont experience sensation from skin due to natural or other mishaps there is nothing like heat or cold.

There is also no darkness or light need eyes for that feeling, nor is there any need to see someone's brain ... if they were so inclined you can see a cadavers brain or MRI the man's head, and to be certain its a brain he's got, MRI your own head, cos usually seeing a person's brain = he's dead.

You also dont have to see evolution, it happens over many many generations. 100 years is nothing for evolution, which is why global warming alarms people. 55 million years ago the earth was much much warmer. However it got to that temperature over 1000's of years from a very cold period 220 million years ago. What alarms people is that its getting warm in the span of 100-150 years. That is so fast that nothign can change its constitution to live in that warmer earth. man can live in +5, except the planet will sustain ~1 billion people not 9.

Yes darkness is absense of light, silence is absense of sound, and cold is absense of heat. As can be measured with a light meter, sound meter and thermometer. Its a figure of speech and not scientific. Tell the scientist to keep it where its dark and cold and he'd ask what temperature and how much max or min light.

I can make darkness darker, and cold colder and silence quieter all the way till they hit 0. And temperature is measured in kelvin, not F or C.

Cool.
Buddha.

[vtlion]

It seems to me like the crux of the fictitious disagreement was whether there was "no evidence, only faith".  I submit that there can be (and often is) "some evidence, and some faith" regardless of the topic under discussion.  Put the two together and you have got my attention.  Offer either exclusively, and I'm not interested in what you have to say.

Science has no problem with God... only with zealots.

[Cal Price]

Buddha, no one needs to appologise for not reading Mein Kampf.

As a youngster I tried to read both Mein Kampf and Das Capital and frankly I did not finish either, droning bores both of them, we all have better things to do.

[Caffeine]

Interesting how the "god" crowd looks at science as an opposing force.   Science seeks truth.  Period.  It has no interest in disproving the existence of a diety or "higher" power.

The more science has shown me in my 44 years of living, the more I would *like* to believe that someone is responsible for creating billions of galaxies and all the wonderful things that there are for the senses to behold.   But as for god being an old man stroking his beard, sitting in the clouds, telling me I can't touch my pee pee for  fear of eternal damnation...well, I just can't get my faith around that.

And how many religious people use things every day in their lives that are there because SCIENTISTS and engineers did their jobs...computers, medicine, electricity, I could go on and on.   Yet they are quick to condemn "science".

[elementguy053]

This sums up a lot of these arguments. Science is fascism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECE77Imki9M

[yooblonder]

This GSTwins forum is turning very philosophical in its old age.

1)

Science has no problem with God... only with zealots.

I'm sure that God has no problem with Science.

But why is the Christian who believes in a Creator God usually the one branded as a zealot?  Is it not often the one denying that there is a God that is the fanatical zealot?

2)

Interesting how the "god" crowd looks at science as an opposing force.   Science seeks truth.  Period.  It has no interest in disproving the existence of a diety or "higher" power.

Caffeine, that's a brilliant statement (partially - the 2nd half).  Why do so many people think that science can be used to disprove God?  Therefore (from Caffeine's statement), when someone tries to disprove God or claim they know God doesn't exist, they cannot claim to have used any scientific basis.

However, the first sentence is ridiculous if it suggests that those who disagree with the typical anti-creationist's version of science see science as an opposing force.  There is nothing contradictory between science and God, unless you have a particularly dogmatic and biased version of science.


3)

And how many religious people use things every day in their lives that are there because SCIENTISTS and engineers did their jobs...computers, medicine, electricity, I could go on and on.   Yet they are quick to condemn "science".

Remind me... Who has ever condemnded science while saying that there is a God?  Don't fall for Dawkins' follies.

4) Here's a challenge for you: Read this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dawkins_Delusion%3F for a more balanced view of science and religion.

I'm not a scientist and I've not read either of these two books; but i WAS surprised to read how many American scientists openly believe in God.  This isn't as one-sded as people are led to believe.

[elementguy053]

Read this and you get your wings early!
http://conservapedia.com/The_God_Delusion

[Caffeine]

The very subject line contains the word "versus" in between "God" and "SCIENCE".  I didn't put it there.  Sounds like the writer of the  story certainly thinks they are rival forces.



As for people who have condemned science while saying there is a god, I lived in the deep south for 10 years and can personally introduce you to dozens of people (some are even relatives) who will be happy to inform you that dinosaurs never existed, the earth is only 6,000 years old, and any scientific "proof" you have to the contrary is pure bullshiat.  They will also tell you that your grandmother died slowly of cancer because "...she must not have been livin' right".

And Bill "loofah" O'Reilly as an example of a rational debate between the two sides is, strangely, appropriate.   

This GSTwins forum is turning very philosophical in its old age.

1)

Science has no problem with God... only with zealots.

I'm sure that God has no problem with Science.

But why is the Christian who believes in a Creator God usually the one branded as a zealot?  Is it not often the one denying that there is a God that is the fanatical zealot?

2)

Interesting how the "god" crowd looks at science as an opposing force.   Science seeks truth.  Period.  It has no interest in disproving the existence of a diety or "higher" power.

Caffeine, that's a brilliant statement (partially - the 2nd half).  Why do so many people think that science can be used to disprove God?  Therefore (from Caffeine's statement), when someone tries to disprove God or claim they know God doesn't exist, they cannot claim to have used any scientific basis.

However, the first sentence is ridiculous if it suggests that those who disagree with the typical anti-creationist's version of science see science as an opposing force.  There is nothing contradictory between science and God, unless you have a particularly dogmatic and biased version of science.


3)

And how many religious people use things every day in their lives that are there because SCIENTISTS and engineers did their jobs...computers, medicine, electricity, I could go on and on.   Yet they are quick to condemn "science".

Remind me... Who has ever condemnded science while saying that there is a God?  Don't fall for Dawkins' follies.

4) Here's a challenge for you: Read this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dawkins_Delusion%3F for a more balanced view of science and religion.

I'm not a scientist and I've not read either of these two books; but i WAS surprised to read how many American scientists openly believe in God.  This isn't as one-sded as people are led to believe.

[yamahonkawazuki]

"A good read" Hmmm like a lot of fairy storys.

It is easy to invent people who you may not agree with and then put the dialog into their mouths and presto - you win the argument. You can make a case for anything if you can dictate the others guys words and actions. This is very like the way crackpot racist theory was put in "Mien Kampf"

Very few Atheists would go out seeking to "convert" others to their views, most of us respect honestly held religious views, in a way I suppose I actually wish I could believe in god and an afterlife, milk and honey etc, It must be very comforting, but neither you nor I can choose what we believe and I can't believe that.
In all honesty, as an Atheist, I don't have any issues with anyone who believes in whatever, not as individuals. Some of the so-called Churches worry me a bit especially those that dictate what "tithe" you should give them and how much you should save and then every so often come up with something for you to spend those savings on. I won't name them but there are three well known worldwide ones but if their followers are of sound mind and know what they are doing then it is their business not mine but to me it is simply a business. Religio-Biz if you like.

Back to the point, this "argument" against Atheism is even weaker than Pascal's wager, and before anyone mentions it I know I can't prove there is no god anymore than the Pope can prove there is no flying spagetti monster, to see how this works Google "Bertrand Russell's Teapot" and whilst you are on google try "Pascal's wager" as well.

I hope I have not offended anyone with genuine religious beliefs but I draw the line at being attacked with meaningless  pseudo arguments.

Well said mr price, that being said i do respect your views, tbh i wish you knew the lord, BUT will respect your beliefs as well. also i do respect you NOT belittling those who do believe. ( unlike many forums where religion threads are started and, like politics QUICKLY turns into a name calling fight. usually by thenon believers, with a efw exceptions of course, i do have a question that has been naggine me all this time, have you always been an athiest?, also god rest her soul, but your wife who had passed away a long time back, was she as well, and finally the lady in your life now, ( IIRC a catholic?) , how does that work out at the dinner table ? will take answer via pm if you wish, if you wish to answer that is . ( didnt mean to ofend or dig up  past memories)

[Toogoofy317]

Hmmm,

How do I go about this?

One question which was harder to get a single cell from nothing or to evolve that cell into homosapien?

Guess who said this "To suppose that the eye, with all of its inimitable contivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admiring diferent amounts of light, and the correction for spehrical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absud in the highest possible degree."

As a science major soon returning back to school it seems hard at times to reconcile my faith with science. But, I know what my heart tells me and it tells me there is a God and he sent us a Son. He wrote us a love letter and the more I read it the more it makes sense. I have yet to find that in any science book and yes I've read many. I just don't understand why it is so hard to believe that there was an architect that created all of this. It seems that it is a farther stretch of faith to think this is all one big accident, that something came from nothing, and that all of this is for Nil. I mean if that is really true I'd blow my brains out tomorrow because the pain, heartache, and hurt are too much to bare. I mean what difference would it make? Not like I'm going anywhere and I sure wouldn't be in constant pain anymore. But, God's word comforts me and he made me the promise of a lifetime which he has not broken yet.

As far as illness and unfairness of life well God didn't gaurantee us a perfect life. If he did why would we ever turn to him. I know for me looking back now I believe this was an odd weird way to answer my prayer and if well I didn't have this heart problem it probably would have never happened. When my parents used to beat me I would pray and pray for a family to love me. It was by being diagnosed with this heart problem that I found my friends that have become the family I never had. Now I'm not saying I enjoy having a heart problem but I know it is what had to happen. it has made me a stronger, loving and more compassionate person. I lean to  2 Corinthinas 12:10 I am glad i don't know the future because i don't think I would have signed up for this jorney if I knew before hand but God planned it at the very beginning and he knew I could handle it. He had faith in me.

I've rambled enough tonight but here are a couple of good reads. The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. and Reclaiming Science from Darwinism A clear understanding of Creation,Evolution, and Intelligent Design. by Kenneth Poppe

I will continue to pray for all who do not know God that one day they will return home.

Mary

[yamahonkawazuki]

Caffein i disagre strongly wiht part of your statement about the GOD people. i am one as you bluntly put hteblanke label upon me, yet ive NO problem at all wiht science, Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, kinda kills that one lol, anyho flame on  , lets keep this civil shall we, we hardly ever have any god threads in here. and this board is one of hte more tolerant boards out there regardign this. most are quick to put a blanket label on those who believe. lets not be so judgmental. lets see if we can discuss this wihtout the flameage

[Cal Price]

Yama, I'll answer here. You will excuse me I hope for not pouring out my entire life.

No I was not always an Atheist, I was bought up with Anglican christian schooling and youth organisations. To be frank this never sat well with me, I did a lot of reading about other religions and faiths, I rather liked Budhist idea and ideals simply because they were so tolerant of every other set of ideas. I suppose I drifted into Agnosticism and Paganism alternating in my life.
My late wife was a total non-believer. We gave our children as much information as we could and let them find themselves and their own beliefs. One child became a Christian getting baptised and confirmed in her teens. Our other child is, as far as I know, a non-believer. Interstingley his partner is a Catholic.
I came to Atheism rather late but found that it liberated me from the doubts of Agnosticism, I simply felt better for it. It was right for me, obviously not for everyone but right for me.
Yes, you are right, Maggie who now shares my life is a Catholic and it does make for some interesting conversations! She perhaps has moved away from ideas of a picture book heaven but does believe that the spirit goes on, the image of flesh and body are of this world only. Make the most of them whilst you can.
We don't sit around having philosophical debates every evening but the subject somes up from time to time and I suppose there are no-go areas. Fortunatley I am very interested in historical Architecture which tends to mean churches and Cathedrals so we do a lot of visiting and stand in wonder, perhaps for slightly differing reasons. In fact the last couple of weekends we have been visiting some of the old Churches of the Romney Marsh. These are mainly 12th/14th century buildings that were built not just for worship but as shelter for Pilgrims and Itenerant farm workers they have interesting stories. I am a member of the Romney Marsh Historic Churches Trust which seeks to preserve them. Our Patron is the Archbishop of Canterbury. I don't have a problem with this, my interest is in the fabric and history of the buildings. Beacons in the landscape and our history.

Mags has some ancestors buried around some of them and we have located a couple - I think she takes the view that before Henry VIII they were Catholic Churches and therefore "hers" as well.

Catholic and Atheist but we have very similar values, moral compass if you like. So we concentrate on the areas of common agreement. Incidently I support six other charities regularly in addition to the RMHCT, two medical research ones, NSPCC, Oxfam and Salvation Army, this might raise a few eybrows but I give to them because they are not judgmental and will help anyone anytime they can. I have had personal experience of this albeit just tea and sandwiches at the scene of a disaster. The last one is the Cat's protection League but everyone has to have an indulgence!

Clear as mud huh?

[Caffeine]

Caffein i disagre strongly wiht part of your statement about the GOD people. i am one as you bluntly put hteblanke label upon me, yet ive NO problem at all wiht science, Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, kinda kills that one lol, anyho flame on  , lets keep this civil shall we, we hardly ever have any god threads in here. and this board is one of hte more tolerant boards out there regardign this. most are quick to put a blanket label on those who believe. lets not be so judgmental. lets see if we can discuss this wihtout the flameage

Yama, I definitely didn't mean to put any label on you.   I was aiming more for the original poster and/or the person who fabricated the original story at the start of the thread.  I apologize to you and anyone else who took my statement as a blanket statement for everyone who believes in a god or gods.

I will, again, point to the original posting/story, which began things as God VERSUS Science, which pretty much opened the gates for a flamewar.   The anecdote which followed was clearly fictional, slanted, and had a bone to pick with atheists.

I don't think I earned the label "judgemental", and I don't think anything I've written could be classified as part of a flamewar.   Again, I can introduce you to lots of people I knew in north Florida who are happy to judge everybody who is not 100% in agreement with their beliefs.  I've been told countless times that I am going to burn in hell by religious, "righteous" people.

I do understand that the opinions of those people are not reflective of ALL religious people, they are just the more vocal 5% or so.   

   There, you took up 15 minutes of my 30 minute lunch break...but I forgive you.   

[elementguy053]

^The quintessential example of why we, as a species, should abandon religion.
Every second spent contemplating it, arguing for it, arguing against it, going to church, and praying is gone forever. Every cent donated to further its short-sighted, empire-building, third-world ravaging campaign is wasted spreading filth and lies.  
The bible does now what it did when it was written in the bronze age; Quell the ignorant and lazy who are unwilling to delve into the unexplained and come back with answers. They would just as happily tell you that it was all a magic man in the sky (yes, man, because that's what the bible says).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlTBBKTO68

Science is not out to "get" your gods, but saying that god and science can coexist is complete hooey. Analysis of any sort would give you no results with which to base any sort of conclusion.  In essence, using the scientific method will, every time, garner the conclusion that there is no God, no heaven or hell, no paranormal activity. They are all lies. If anything, religion is out to get science. Want proof?
http://creationmuseum.org/  Where Jesus LITERALLY LIVES WITH VELOCIRAPTORS!
http://www.geocentrism.com/ Where it is still believed that Copernicus was a heretic.
How many great scientists have been slaughtered in the name of heresy?

There is no evidence that my girlfriend and I expressing our feelings through physical intimacy before we promise to love each other forever will land me anywhere but dead in the ground. Time and time again it has been proven incontrovertibly that at the end of life there is nothing but decay back down to the building blocks. Want evidence? Go find what used to be your grandmother. Yep, it's still there. Every little piece that, when configured correctly, made delicious cookies and gave sweet kisses is slowly decomposing to what it was before.

To those who would defend their belief: Do you believe in leprechauns? There are ancient texts that refer to them, their deeds, their mischief. If you don't, then why?
Maybe you're just too narrow-minded.

3 years ago, I was as faithful a servant as you could wish to be. Nothing could convince me to question my beliefs. But if you gain the fortitude to put your religion under the same scrutiny that you would any other world-defining characteristic, the conclusion is inevitable.

Believing in god is drilled into your brain from the time you are born, and to put something that you know to be true under the microscope is scary. Undertaking a journey that may completely alter your outlook on the world is intimidating.  But you cannot let fear drown out the truth. This is your ONE LIFE, you will only get ONE opportunity to appreciate what is around you. A life spent blindly following this ancient text as the absolute unbending truth without ONCE seriously asking yourself what the hell you're doing is a life poorly spent.

Some may say that they don't care what you believe, but I DO. I DON'T WANT YOU TO WASTE YOUR LIFE! I don't want you to live in persistent fear! I want you to appreciate the universe! I want you to UNDERSTAND physics and chemistry! I want you to see that scientists aren't hiding behind complex experiments and big words!
And i especially don't want you to spread these fairy tales as truth to the modern-ignorant so that they waste their lives too.

[The Buddha]

I dunno I have been able to reconcile the 2. Sorta like what caffeine posted.

God put all the things in place to get life to form. Then That life grew into its present shape due to what had been put there by god. If the earth had freezing cold all the time the life will have been very different. Created by god.

How the different creations of god interact with each other is science. The mountain was created by god. The rock that god created rolls off the mountain due to god's gravity and clobbers you has been precisely calculated to do exactly that via science.

My old math professor was prone to arguing that it was God's law of gravity, and not newton's. I interjected saying, its newton's law of god's gravity.

Science is not the opposite of god, its the study of things created by god. Muhahahahaha ... hahahahah

Cool.
Buddha.

[elementguy053]

And I will respectfully say that you are copping out of inquiry because of a book. To follow some evidence and dismiss that which is not proven is acceptable, EXCEPT for this ONE HUMONGOUS THING?!?!!?!?!
When I was religious, even I had the sense to throw out the Bible. I did this because I knew that at some time it was written by a man, and that man was flawed at birth, therefore could never begin to write perfection. I was depending on physical evidence of Jesus' existence to pick up slack. Lo and behold, Jesus' existence is undocumented by the government of the time. Massive enslavement and exodus of the Jews is completely undocumented by the government of the time.  There is not enough water in the world to cover all of its land!
It seems evident that the bible was written on the fly by someone with little more enlightenment than those around them.

[Caffeine]

Oooh!   *Now* it's getting all flamewar-ey in here!     Good thing I brought some marshmallows and skewers.   Help yourselves!

I respect everyone's religion and beliefs, up until they start to disrespect *my* beliefs, or lack thereof.    This thread was started by someone who clearly does not  tolerate nonbelievers like myself.   (Incidentally, that person who started this thread has not reappeared yet.   Kinda like someone who steps into a crowded elevator, farts, and gets off at the next floor.)

The Hubble telescope.  Created by man.  By "science", if you will.  Every day it brings more and more of this awesome, seemingly endless galaxy into focus.  I am astounded by the size and scope and endless variety of goings-on!  And it all started billion of years ago.   Billions of years.   Billions.  Billions.  Get your head around that awesome amount of time.

Evolution.  Billions of earth years.  Dinosaurs.   Things that came, ruled for a million years, and went.  Or just slowly (very, very slowly) morphed/adapted to their environment into new species.  It is an amazingly astounding process.  Yesterday's brontosaurus is today's chicken, or some such thing.  Seems almost intelligent.  Almost.  Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.  Not enough information (in *my* opinion) to prove it one way or the other.  But I don't need proof one way or the other.   That's just now how I'm put together.  Some people do need that proof, and have acceptable proof, and I respect that, and I'm not looking to disprove their proof.   It would serve me absolutely no good purpose to deprive a believer of his or her beliefs.


It all makes humans seem small, by comparison.  But we aren't.  We have an intelligence to see, explore and learn that goes far beyond the little speck that circles a star in a practically (but not literally) endless galaxy.  I think maybe that is one of the functions (one of many functions) of religion (for some people):  It gives their life a "purpose".  That is a good thing.  My mother is 74 and has 2 health issues that could take her life any minute.  She has very strong religious beliefs, and she is at peace with herself and her mortality.   I credit her belief for that.   That is a good, healthy, valuable purpose for religion!   On the other hand, at this stage in my life, I have learned that religious belief of the organized kind does NOT give me similar comfort.   It just does not work for me.  I'm OK with that.  Believers should be OK with me being OK with that, but a small percentage of believers feel pity for my soul and think that I need saving.  That is where they should leave well enough alone, but, like I said, a small number of them feel the need to attack nonbelievers in the belief that that is what their god wants them to do. 


Now, whether we are here because what we call life is a fairly common cosmic occurence, or whether we are literally created by a god, I can't say.   But I have no need to know for sure, any more than I have a need to know how a Mikuni carb on a GS500 works.   I don't know shiat about carbs, but they must do their job.   At least, I BELIEVE they do their job.  The bike runs, ergo the carb must exist.  I have proof enough of that for me.  I am happy to live in peace with my fellow human beings, regardless of whether we are here by Creation or here by accident.  The galaxy/cosmos/universe is a mighty big place.  Much, much bigger than we will EVER be able to see or explore.  If it was Created by a god, well then, He's certainly got my respect!  (He's quite a scientist, this god!)  He's got a few of the little details wrong, in my humble opinion, but it is certainly a worthy effort!  (I respectfully think children having cancer needs to be addressed, Big Guy!)

If there is a god, I seriously doubt that he/she/it cares if I touch my pee pee, eat pork, have occasional hot sex with a non-spouse, wear clothes with mixed fibers,  throw a couple bucks into a collection plate once a week, or give a fellow driver the occasional well-deserved obscene gesture.   I just don't think he/she/it would care about those things.  But I do think we all need to live together and respect each other, in all our infinite human diversity.  I think we need to work together to insure that future generations will be left a world of relative peace and prosperity, with as great a chance at life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as we have enjoyed!  I think we need to punish douchebags who steal, murder, molest children, torture animals and produce reality TV shows.  I think we need to love each other for who we are, not hate each other for our differences.  I think each of us needs to be the best person he/she/it can be.  I think we need to care for the sick and injured.   Feed the hungry, shelter the homeless.  I think we need to focus our time and energy on improving our respective societies,  not try to tear down those who disagree with us.

As for Internet forums being used as a place to discuss hot-topic issues; they suck.  You can't see the expressions on a person's face, you can't pick up on the subtle use of words and inflection.  It is easy to read what someone types and completely misunderstand the meaning, or get hung up on semantics.  I've done my best here, because I think it is worth it, and because I know that somewhere out there behind my computer screen there are REAL PEOPLE attached to those screen names, and I value each of you, whether you agree with me or not.  You are all worth my time and energy, regardless of your belief systems, or lack thereof.

Peace.   

[yamahonkawazuki]

My apologies caffeine. i initially took it as a blanket jab/label, but have had tiem to think otherwise, and cal, actually appreciated the expy, so now i know some of what makes cal price, cal price , ive many ancestors in the UK as well as eastern europe, and the black forest area, traced aprt of them to 13th century beermakers going to see this street ( named after family there) :
http://www.locr.com/photo-germany-baden-w%C3%BCrttemberg-karlsruhe-hans-thoma-stra%C3%9Fe-13777140,

and this oen in vienna also named after family

http://tupalo.com/en/vienna/gasthof-zur-pfanne  both the thoma, and bahr family here.  planning a trip hopefully soon to see ancestral homes, some of which still occupied by family, europe, many times older than the US and so full of history and architecture, am envious of its residents sometimes