Buying tools and doing your own work (another rant)

[twocool]

I think that forums like this are often used to get and give advice for the do-it-yourself type of person.  Many people have little or no experience in mechanics, yet want to learn, and want to do their own maintenance and repair work...and write in for help and advice.....

One of the problems with DIY..is you do need some level of tools in your box....sometimes some specialized tools, which can be somewhat costly.....

It has been my experience with cars, airplanes and motorcycles.....If you price out the repair or maintenance at a dealership...the cost (parts and labor), will be almost exactly the same as you doing the job yourself....including you buying the tools......(you pay yourself $0 for labor).

This means, for instance on the first oil change, you get all the needed tools "for free" and every oil change after that costs a mere fraction of what the dealer would charge........

This way, over a lifetime...you amass a nice collection of useful tools, which can then be used on many other DIY projects!!

I have always been sorry when  getting ripped off at a dealership...

I have never been sorry for buying a good tool!!!

Cookie

[BaltimoreGS]

Sorry to threadjack but I'd like to add my 2 cents to this one.  I've tinkered since I was a kid and worked as a technician (fancy word for mechanic) for close to a decade now.  I have owned cheap and expensive tools.  Here's what I have learned along the way:

One good tool is better than repeatedly buying a cheap tool.  A good tool will also do the job better.  It will be easier to use and less likely to damage what you are working on.  Here is some advice I give when people ask me about tools...

I see 3 grades of tools: cheap, home owner quality and professional quality.  All 3 have their uses.  My traveling tool kit is made up of cheap and home owner quality tools.  It is not something I use on a regular basis but it has all the tools I would need in most scenarios.  And while I would be pissed if it was lost/stolen I wouldn't be out a ton of money.  Some of Harbor Freight's stuff are decent cheap tools.  And some of the stuff at Advance Auto, Autozone, Home Depot... are decent cheap tools.  Sears Craftsman "Evolve" tools are also decent cheap tools.  Most of the Craftsman stuff I consider to be home owner grade.  The combination wrenches are short (less leverage).  In fact I prefer the Evolve wrenches due to their length.  The Craftsman ratchets are rough and have a relatively large swing arc but they are durable and get the job done.  Sears now has a line of polished tools that are a step above their regular stuff.  Most of those tools would fall into the professional category.

If you have the money, nothing beats "pro" grade tools.  In most cases Snap On is the top of the line.  In my experience, Snap On makes the best wrenches.  They are strong, provide excellent leverage, and are the least likely to round off fasteners.  One place Snap On is not #1 is ratchets.  Matco makes the best ratchets.  Their fine tooth gear heads are smooth, strong and only require a 4 degree swing arc (great in tight places).  They have a superior locking flex head design too.  One pro grade brand I really dislike is Mac.  I have never bought a Mac tool that has lasted.  Mac sockets break often and their ratchets are inferior to Matco and Snap On.  Also their wrenches don't "feel" very good (ergonomics?).  And the greatest invention to come along in my time as a mechanic are Gear Wrenches.  One of those "why didn't I think of it" ideas.  The original GearWrench brand is still the best.  I also have some locking flex head gear wrenches made by SK that come in very handy sometimes.

And before you run out and buy the best, here is some great advice my old boss/mentor gave me when I was starting out.  First of all, buy the cheapest toolbox you can.  All it does it hold tools.  Instead of buying a $5,000 Snap On box, buy a $1,000 Harbor Freight box and fill it with $4,000 worth of Snap On tools.  Secondly, unless you borrow a tool 2 or 3 times you don't really need to buy it.  And thirdly, only buy tools for what you work on.  If you don't have a '72 Monte Carlo in your driveway you probably don't need SAE tools.  Lots of the pre-packaged tool kits have metric and SAE tools.  If you are only working on your GS (or any car produced in the last 20 or so years) you only need metric tools.  And even within them there are only certain sizes you will use on a regular basis.  One thing I did when I was starting out was buy mid-grade sockets (Sunex brand) and as they were broken/lost I replaced them with a Snap On.  Those Sunex sockets proved to be pretty decent and I still have most of them in service   

Rant ended...

-Jessie

[The Buddha]

Only thing to add ... Snap on sockets absolutely rock ... I only have 1 though, cost me near $6-7 ... my 10 mm, but before that the 10mm craftsmen ones, I went through 3 ... in the 10 years since, just that 1 ... actually its saved me from going through 3 more so the craftsmen also lasts longer (cos I dont use it on the ones I know are tough).
The 10 is the most often used obviously with a jap bike ... the 8 also is used heavily, however I suspect the 8 being almost the same wall thickness as the 10 ... is stronger cos its a smaller bolt ... it tends to be tightened less and hence the socket dont get as much stress.
Good to know about Mac ... but I wont stop at nothing but snap on if I am going above craftsman.
Cool.
Buddha.

[twocool]

Sorry to threadjack but I'd like to add my 2 cents to this one.  I've tinkered since I was a kid and worked as a technician (fancy word for mechanic) for close to a decade now.  I have owned cheap and expensive tools.  Here's what I have learned along the way:

One good tool is better than repeatedly buying a cheap tool.  A good tool will also do the job better.  It will be easier to use and less likely to damage what you are working on.  Here is some advice I give when people ask me about tools...

I see 3 grades of tools: cheap, home owner quality and professional quality.  All 3 have their uses.  My traveling tool kit is made up of cheap and home owner quality tools.  It is not something I use on a regular basis but it has all the tools I would need in most scenarios.  And while I would be pissed if it was lost/stolen I wouldn't be out a ton of money.  Some of Harbor Freight's stuff are decent cheap tools.  And some of the stuff at Advance Auto, Autozone, Home Depot... are decent cheap tools.  Sears Craftsman "Evolve" tools are also decent cheap tools.  Most of the Craftsman stuff I consider to be home owner grade.  The combination wrenches are short (less leverage).  In fact I prefer the Evolve wrenches due to their length.  The Craftsman ratchets are rough and have a relatively large swing arc but they are durable and get the job done.  Sears now has a line of polished tools that are a step above their regular stuff.  Most of those tools would fall into the professional category.

If you have the money, nothing beats "pro" grade tools.  In most cases Snap On is the top of the line.  In my experience, Snap On makes the best wrenches.  They are strong, provide excellent leverage, and are the least likely to round off fasteners.  One place Snap On is not #1 is ratchets.  Matco makes the best ratchets.  Their fine tooth gear heads are smooth, strong and only require a 4 degree swing arc (great in tight places).  They have a superior locking flex head design too.  One pro grade brand I really dislike is Mac.  I have never bought a Mac tool that has lasted.  Mac sockets break often and their ratchets are inferior to Matco and Snap On.  Also their wrenches don't "feel" very good (ergonomics?).  And the greatest invention to come along in my time as a mechanic are Gear Wrenches.  One of those "why didn't I think of it" ideas.  The original GearWrench brand is still the best.  I also have some locking flex head gear wrenches made by SK that come in very handy sometimes.

And before you run out and buy the best, here is some great advice my old boss/mentor gave me when I was starting out.  First of all, buy the cheapest toolbox you can.  All it does it hold tools.  Instead of buying a $5,000 Snap On box, buy a $1,000 Harbor Freight box and fill it with $4,000 worth of Snap On tools.  Secondly, unless you borrow a tool 2 or 3 times you don't really need to buy it.  And thirdly, only buy tools for what you work on.  If you don't have a '72 Monte Carlo in your driveway you probably don't need SAE tools.  Lots of the pre-packaged tool kits have metric and SAE tools.  If you are only working on your GS (or any car produced in the last 20 or so years) you only need metric tools.  And even within them there are only certain sizes you will use on a regular basis.  One thing I did when I was starting out was buy mid-grade sockets (Sunex brand) and as they were broken/lost I replaced them with a Snap On.  Those Sunex sockets proved to be pretty decent and I still have most of them in service   

Rant ended...

-Jessie

Jessie....Nice discussion and I totally agree....It's basically "you get what you pay for".........

But on the other hand..."just pay for what you need"

But you also have to be realistic..........The Snap on guy comes every Friday, and shows us all the cool stuff.....my boss can afford this stuff and ocasionaly buys something...my shop tool box is filled with mostly snap on stuff...and I really enjoy....(but these are not my personal tools) but personally, this stuff is way beyond my price range for the work I do myself on my own projects.........I am more the middle grade tool kind of guy..(like craftsman)...and I also have a lot of cheep-ass tool for where they are going to get lost easily (traveling) or somebody is going to borrow and break or not return....
When a pro mechanic pays top dollar for a top quality too...he is actually amortising that price over thousands or even tens of thousands of jobs...the cost is insignificant......

For the "casual" mechanic.....the cost of a new tool is a large portion of the cost of each project..........

As a "casual" mechanic...I have built two complete airplanes from scratch...overhauled three VW motors, one Triumph Car Motor, two aircraft engines, built boats, etc...etc.....all with medium grade tools, other than "special tools"...some of which I purchased at high cost...some of which I was able to borrow....

Cookie

[The Buddha]

The thing is casual mech - a crastsman around $1 a tool works just fine IMHO.
Its the repeated hammering that makes that next level neccesary.
For example, my 3/8 10mm hasn't got even close to being replaced from use.
I can honestly say most mechanics, even professional mechanics ... dont need more than 4-5 sockets that are the snap on quality. The 10mm and maybe 8mm in the 1/4" ,a 12 and maybe 14mm in the 3/8" and maybe 14 in the 1/2" drive, and maybe a few crescent wrenches.
Its the sizes that get used a lot and are structurally @ their outer stress limit that I can see need to be the high quality.

BTW I have got some very nice Northern tool ones - are they made in china ? probably, but they work great and stand up to a decent beating. Allen sockets come to mind. Though I have sheared off a few ... maybe time to consider snap on for those ?
Cool.
Buddha.

[cbrfxr67]

Really interesting read here.  I enjoy reading what tech's (& diy guys) think and especially their opinions & history dealing with certain brands.  My job is tools, and I have dozens of Snap On, Matco, Mac, Cornwell, and Independent tool truck customers.  Working in the tool business, you discover the companies behind the names, Danaher, behind KDT, Craftsman, Matco, Armstrong and Gearwrench.  Stanley behind Mac.  RWD behind Snap On.  Then the companies behind those companies, the actual makers of the tools, Lisle, Ingersoll-Rand, etc etc that list goes on and on.  Many of the tools with name brands on them aren't made by those brands at all.  Furthermore, talking with the reps for these companies, you find that some brands are all made at the same plant in Taiwan: Grey Pneumatic, Sunex, Adv (matco), ATD, etc.  I agree with what BaltimoreGS said in the different levels of tool use.  I sell alot of ATD but my guys don't particular like to buy it if they can get Lisle or KD in place of it.  Their reason when I tell them 'I have it and use it' is "yea but you don't use it everyday."  Which is true, even though I do use my tools alot.  I am not a professional and don't hammer on them 8 hours a day, all week long.  My tools mainly consist of a mix of brands.  ATD and SK with a couple oddball Craftsman, for sockets.  For ratchets, I really like the feel of Crafstman but I break them, so I use SK.  I'd like to get a KD master set of screwdrivers but I'm still using my ATD master set, which have been fine.  I do use SK for the #2 which I use all the time.  Specialty tools, pullers, testers, etc I usually buy whatever is cheapest, and yes I have broken some.  Warranty is a huge issue in tools and most brands have good warranties unless it is obvious that you abused it.  I laugh sometimes when the guys want to warranty tools that are obviously well used and years old.  I can understand 'lifetime' warranty but if it looks like the Channelocks are 14 years old and the teeth are worn down from use, do you honestly feel you should get another pair because you 'used' them?  That is different from the handle breaking off.
But back to the point.  I agree with doing your own work, learning how to do it and buying what you need to do it.  I don't think it is necessary to buy top of the line tools to get the job done if you aren't doing this as your profession.  Before you buy, look at what you are buying, and see if you can figure out who makes it.  Unless you simply want the sticker on the label to say 'Snap On,' you could buy the exact same tool, without the label for half the price.  Don't think I'm discouraging buying from those guys though.  I get on two or three trucks a day.  It is great talking to the guys and looking at the different set ups, the different tools.  That is one of my favorite things about my job, getting on the trucks and digging around in there, seeing what is new and trying to get them to buy more of my tools!

[lanesplitter]

After 40 years as a DIYer I can attest to the long term advantage of buying your own tools.  I got a Craftsman mechanics set of tools for Christmas in 1976 and still have the original tools with the exception of a socket that I broke and two ratchets that wore out.  Sears replaced all of them without question.  I have gone from a small two drawer portble tool box to a large 6' two stage cabinet and three sets of shelves to house all of my tools.  I can't recall the last time I paid anyone to do anything on my house or vehicles.  There is no telling how much I've saved over the years by doing it myself and more importantly - I know it's done right! 

[4strings]

I've also been told Waterloo Tool boxes is the company that makes most of the tool boxes for other tool manufacturers and re-badges them (Craftsman, Mac, etc.).  So buy Waterloo, and get a Craftsman box with a different name.  I can't wait for X-mas when I can get my own box so I can stop having to find all my tools constantly.

[mike__R]

I'm a big fan of the lifetime warranty so when I do break a tool (and I have a few times, usually from trying to use it in a way it wasn't designed to be used) I can get it replaced next time I go to Sears.  Oh I usually go with Craftsman due to the lifetime warranty.  If  I need a tool that is not going to be used but a hadfull of times I might get harbor freight and hope it works the few times I need it.

[The Buddha]

Really interesting read here.  I enjoy reading what tech's (& diy guys) think and especially their opinions & history dealing with certain brands.  My job is tools, and I have dozens of Snap On, Matco, Mac, Cornwell, and Independent tool truck customers.  Working in the tool business, you discover the companies behind the names, Danaher, behind KDT, Craftsman, Matco, Armstrong and Gearwrench.  Stanley behind Mac.  RWD behind Snap On.  Then the companies behind those companies, the actual makers of the tools, Lisle, Ingersoll-Rand, etc etc that list goes on and on.  Many of the tools with name brands on them aren't made by those brands at all.  Furthermore, talking with the reps for these companies, you find that some brands are all made at the same plant in Taiwan: Grey Pneumatic, Sunex, Adv (matco), ATD, etc.  I agree with what BaltimoreGS said in the different levels of tool use.  I sell alot of ATD but my guys don't particular like to buy it if they can get Lisle or KD in place of it.  Their reason when I tell them 'I have it and use it' is "yea but you don't use it everyday."  Which is true, even though I do use my tools alot.  I am not a professional and don't hammer on them 8 hours a day, all week long.  My tools mainly consist of a mix of brands.  ATD and SK with a couple oddball Craftsman, for sockets.  For ratchets, I really like the feel of Crafstman but I break them, so I use SK.  I'd like to get a KD master set of screwdrivers but I'm still using my ATD master set, which have been fine.  I do use SK for the #2 which I use all the time.  Specialty tools, pullers, testers, etc I usually buy whatever is cheapest, and yes I have broken some.  Warranty is a huge issue in tools and most brands have good warranties unless it is obvious that you abused it.  I laugh sometimes when the guys want to warranty tools that are obviously well used and years old.  I can understand 'lifetime' warranty but if it looks like the Channelocks are 14 years old and the teeth are worn down from use, do you honestly feel you should get another pair because you 'used' them?  That is different from the handle breaking off.
But back to the point.  I agree with doing your own work, learning how to do it and buying what you need to do it.  I don't think it is necessary to buy top of the line tools to get the job done if you aren't doing this as your profession.  Before you buy, look at what you are buying, and see if you can figure out who makes it.  Unless you simply want the sticker on the label to say 'Snap On,' you could buy the exact same tool, without the label for half the price.  Don't think I'm discouraging buying from those guys though.  I get on two or three trucks a day.  It is great talking to the guys and looking at the different set ups, the different tools.  That is one of my favorite things about my job, getting on the trucks and digging around in there, seeing what is new and trying to get them to buy more of my tools!

OOoooo I got a good friend who sells KD and SK, phenomenal tools.
Surprised to know they also make em for snap on and the rest of the trucks, he says the trucks hate his company/business.

Cool.
Buddha.

[BaltimoreGS]

I'm a big fan of the lifetime warranty so when I do break a tool (and I have a few times, usually from trying to use it in a way it wasn't designed to be used) I can get it replaced next time I go to Sears.  Oh I usually go with Craftsman due to the lifetime warranty.  If  I need a tool that is not going to be used but a hadfull of times I might get harbor freight and hope it works the few times I need it.

It's also good to read the terms of the lifetime warranties.  Sears is pretty good about exchanging broken Craftsman branded tools with out question (though they won't exchange the chrome sockets if they looked egged out by an impact gun).  With Sears Evolve branded tools and Harbor Freight Tools you have to have the original sales receipt to get them to honor the lifetime warranty.  All the pro grade tools (Snap on, Matco, MAC..) are exchanged without proof of purchase.

-Jessie

[Shaddow]

I'll add that sometimes people work on bikes and cars themselves cause they can't afford to have someone else do it. In that case buying the cheap tool the first time might be what is needed.

I look at tool buying like I do furniture buying.
Good furniture will last a score of years. But a cheap bed is better than no bed.
So if I need a tool and budget is a concern I get a cheap one to get me by. However when it finally breaks I will go out and get the good quality at that point.
I like Repco and Snap On for my choice of brand. I still have sockets and spanners from when my father started as a fitter and turner, so about 45 years ago. Good quality Sid Chrome from a day when Sid was good.

I also have another opinion. If the right tool will save me 4 hours of swearing just once, then it is worth buying using and lending to my mates.

[BaltimoreGS]

This is a cut and paste of an old post of mine but it goes along with this topic and it may be helpful for any newer people reading this thread   

-Jessie


Cut and paste:

There was a post the other day about the factory tool kit and how it has rather low quality tools.  Here is the tool kit I carry in my tank bag.  I knocked it over and spilled it while I was working on a bike this weekend so I snapped a few pictures while I reorganized it today.  It has all the basic tools you'd need in a roadside emergency & for minor maintenance and repairs:

Standard and Phillips tip screwdrivers
Combination wrench set (8-19 and 22mm)
Pliers and wire cutters
Allen wrenches
3/8" drive socket set (10-19mm)
Tire pressure gauge
Tire plug kit and CO2 inflator
Latex gloves

When traveling I also throw in some mechanics wire and extra levers in case of a minor wreck.  All the tools fit in a cheap shower tote that stows easily in a tank bag (too big to store under the seat).  As Jared pointed out, you really only need 8, 10, 12, 14, 17, 19 and 22mm sizes on the GS so you could eliminate some sockets and wrenches to make the kit smaller and lighter    

-Jessie


Tools



Tools neatly stowed in a shower tote



Shower tote zippered closed



Not a tool I carry but one that I had in the bag from working on crustybmer's GS. This is a Toyota Special Service Tool that was used to change valve shims on 80's Camrys.  Not something that is used much anymore so nobody really notices/cares when I borrow it from my old job 

[PachmanP]

I figure there's 2 cases for doing it yourself:
1. You have time, but not money.
2. You're a masochist and "enjoy" doing the work yourself.

Outside of these cases, if you're working on something and it's not your actual job, you're probably not applying opportunity costs well. The cost of the tools and the value of the time you spend probably is greater than the cost of having a "specialist" do it.

In the first case, you might be stuck with whatever works, but if you expect to do something more than once, it's worth investing a step up from harbor freight specials.

In the second case, you probably also have tool fetish too.

[HardcoreKeith]

Or 3: you want the repair to actually occur, and be done right, and not have other parts mysteriously broken or missing

[lanesplitter]

Or 3: you want the repair to actually occur, and be done right, and not have other parts mysteriously broken or missing

Amen brother!

[twocool]

I figure there's 2 cases for doing it yourself:
1. You have time, but not money.
2. You're a masochist and "enjoy" doing the work yourself.

Outside of these cases, if you're working on something and it's not your actual job, you're probably not applying opportunity costs well. The cost of the tools and the value of the time you spend probably is greater than the cost of having a "specialist" do it.

In the first case, you might be stuck with whatever works, but if you expect to do something more than once, it's worth investing a step up from harbor freight specials.

In the second case, you probably also have tool fetish too.

Yeah....But there is more than case one or two...

I know plenty of guys who have all the money they could ever spend in a lifetime...and they do their own work on everything........(they also have the best tools too)

Let me add something......A dealer works for only one thing...profit....this means the dealership mechanics are rewarded for doing a job fast...not necessarily good, but necessarily fast...

Sure there are some great mechanics working at dealerships...and there are a lot of hacks too..."specialist" is kind of a strong word for some I have seen...

So if you do the job yourself...there is no profit motive..so you will do the job well, and you know it's done correctly...........and it is fun.....and you can be proud of your work...and proud of your bike...

I am not familiar with dealer costs for typical maintenance...but maybe we can compare?  An oil change for instance.....I can do it for $20 ~ $25....and 1/2 hour.....


Dealer is going to get $39 just for the oil, plus say $25 for a filter...and what, and hour of shop time at $85.....so figure $100 to $125???   (I've seen dealers  even charge for "shop rags" and "environmental disposal" !!!)

Since I don't make anywhere near $100 an hour at my job.....I figure that if it takes me three hours to do a job that the dealer can do in one hour...I am still ahead of the game....add in that I do the work "right"... and at my own schedule....and don't have to leave my bike for days in a big heap of other bikes in the repair shop storage room...etc...I'm way ahead.......and can afford to buy more tools.......

How about a valve adjust.?....I have heard of dealers charging, but no doing.....or of dealers figuring 4 hours of shop time and $60 for 4 shims....so that ends up a $400 job?  (which is supposed to be done every 3500 miles...on a $4000 bike?

OK maybe the mom and pop "local" shops are more reasonable..but not by much..

I put 14,000 miles on my bike the first year.....so what would it have cost if I had the maintenance done by the dealer to the spec on the maintenance chart?   Battery check, airc leener change, spark plugs, valve adjust...oil changes, tires, etc...  2 grand???  Maybe 3 grand?  It would actually be chaeper to do no maintenance at ll and run the bike into the gorund and buy a new one every two years!!!

OK...maybe I am exagerating a bit....or am I???


So if you're mechanically retarded, and you make $100 an hour at your job, or your "second" job...by all means it makes sense to pay the dealer....but for routine maintenance (simple) stuff it is a rip off any way you look at it.

But back to tools.......most guys who work on their own motorcycle, also have other similar interests...like working on cars, boats, airplanes, bicycles, whatever......so they either already have the tools, or don't mind getting more tools.......(fetish if you wish)...

But my theory still holds...for the price of one dealer service...you can buy all the necessary tools, and parts and do the job yourself......from then on you use those tools over and over and save money each service! 

Cookie

[twocool]

Or 3: you want the repair to actually occur, and be done right, and not have other parts mysteriously broken or missing

Jeeze.....it took me 15 paragraphs to say the same thing (above)...you posted while I was still typing!

Cookie

[Suzuki Stevo]

Side Note: Every Mechanic that I have ever worked with that had a 6 ft+ tall tool box....was a "Tool" and ended up being a Supervisor<<<True Story   

[A.Milos]

I fit in here somewhere... I would love to do all my own work, but unfortunately I don't have, and probably won't ever have the time. Not for a long while, anyway.

Incidentally, if you look far enough I'm sure you'll find a business who realises the best way to ensure a profit is good quality work. That said, this kind of thinking is scarce unfortunately. 

Mechanics are like bottled water, I'm basically paying for convenience.