use of rear brake in tight turns

[Phil B]

Sooo... lets say you're entering a relatively tight turn, around 40mph in 3rd.
You are already in the turn, and leaning.
and you suddenly realize you probably dont have enough lean to complete the turn cleanly. (and you really are maxed out; you know where you start scraping, although you havent yet)
lets say also that this is a non-banked turn.

you decide that you need to "scrub a little speed".  by use of the rear brake.
Make the assumption that you are going to keep a little on the throttle throughout.
That being said, would folks who actually use this technique, recommend

a) ultra-light but continuous use, until you've lost "enough" speed
b) a slightly more forceful, but momentary, tap on the rear brake
c) ??  lean it down all the way to "scrape", and rely on that to slow a bit?
d)

from what I've read, I'm thinking b) is worst choice since if you misjudge, it's more likely to trigger highside.

?

[burning1]

In my opinion, as someone who races the GS, and does sport touring on lots of unknown roads...

If you end up in this situation, you are making huge mistakes to begin with. With a basic suspension setup (rear preload adjustment,) the GS500 has loads of cornering clearance. If you're scraping hard parts on the street, it's most likely that you're using very bad body position (counter-leaning) or you are riding way way way too fast. You may also be using bad lines, and making poor use of your focus.

First thing to keep in mind - the GS500 is pretty well sorted. If a footpeg touches down, there's still a safe margin of cornering clearance available - you can go a little further, but in doing so, you risk scraping something non-compliant, which can lift the rear wheel off the ground and cause a lowside. I would generally advise you to let the peg scrape over risking a loss of traction on the brakes.

On the street, my general advice is to develop a little trail braking skill. When riding unknown roads, I'll generally trail brake into each corner, and enter lowly enough that I can scrub off some speed with the front brake. In dry conditions, you might be surprised by how much lean angle you can carry while applying the front brake. Be aware though that this is a dangerous skill. It works better when you have re-sprung the front end... It works better when you carry the front brake into the corner, rather than applying halfway through. And it can easily lead to a crash if you abruptly apply the brakes. Using the rear brake is the same general concept - it's a little safer mid corner, since a rear brake slide is recoverable, and a front brake slide is not. If you're halfway through the corner, and concerned about the front brake, you can try applying the rear lightly.

I prefer using the above technique, because when you slow, you can always slow further, or add a little more lean angle. If you respond to a surprisingly tight or long corner by adding lean angle, you are 100% committed, and don't have many further options.

There are other ways to deal with this situation as well. Shifting your bodyweight to the inside of the bike will lift it off the ground. Accelerating will cause the rear end to lift up, freeing up some lean angle -- yes! there are actually situations where the best way to prevent hard parts from grinding is to gas it up! I use this a lot when racing.

Absolute worst case - pick the bike up, brake hard, and then turn in. Using good lines and having knowledge of alternative lines helps a lot here.

I think option B is the worst. If you have to use the brakes in a corner, apply them as smoothly as possible, use the least force as possible, and do it over the longest distance possible. If you slightly drag the rear brake, and it starts to slip, you can recover. If you jab and it goes way out, you can easily cause a high-side.

Will discuss more when I wake up in the morning.

[crzydood17]

Turning isn't so much about lean as it is weight distribution, The guys who really get there knees down hang off the bike a lot! The more your over to the side of the turn the less the bike needs to lean to complete the turn or if needed the more the bike CAN lean to complete the turn. If I was in such a situation I would slide off to the side of the turn and put all my weight into it. 

If ya gotta brake, like burning said be gentle or stand it up and hit them hard and reinitialize.

[Phil B]

If ya gotta brake, like burning said be gentle or stand it up and hit them hard and reinitialize.

The turns I'm talking about, by the time you stand it up and brake, you dont have time to "reinitialize", you're already off the outside.

This is more for canyon riding, than "track", strictly speaking.

To the prior poster: yes, obviously in this type of situation, "mistakes were made". The question is, what do you do then, to avoid that being your LAST mistake :-}

[Phil B]

PS:

If you end up in this situation, you are making huge mistakes to begin with. With a basic suspension setup (rear preload adjustment,) the GS500 has loads of cornering clearance. If you're scraping hard parts on the street, it's most likely that you're using very bad body position (counter-leaning) or you are riding way way way too fast. You may also be using bad lines, and making poor use of your focus.

Yes, absolutely, this  is a given. I'm relatively new, so my lines are most likely poor, etc. I'm looking to improve
The one thing I can say, is that I'm not counter leaning

Are you suggesting I should always set the rear pre-load to max (7) before doing this sort of thing?

I'm also thinking what I'm scraping is the centerstand(based on reading, not actual observation), so I should remove it?

Accelerating will cause the rear end to lift up, freeing up some lean angle -- yes! there are actually situations where the best way to prevent hard parts from grinding is to gas it up! I use this a lot when racing.

"small" detail:  as far as I've noticed, gasing up on turns, makes the bike want to straighten up and go wide.
So I guess that would be, "gas it up, and then lean extra hard" ?

[SAFE-T]

The turns I'm talking about, by the time you stand it up and brake, you dont have time to "reinitialize", you're already off the outside.

Give up motorcycling before you kill or maim yourself.

Trail braking is about maintaining chassis geometry through a turn, not slowing down.

[SAFE-T]

That being said, would folks who actually use this technique, recommend:

a) ultra-light but continuous use, until you've lost "enough" speed
b) a slightly more forceful, but momentary, tap on the rear brake
c) ??  lean it down all the way to "scrape", and rely on that to slow a bit?
d)

When in doubt, lean over more. If that doesn't work, try "a" and hope you don't lowside and "go off" yourself.

Leaning more will not slow you down.

[burning1]

Adding gas will cause your bike to take a wider line through the corner than you otherwise would. With a lot of experience, you learn to judge the difference. It is a valid technique if you're dragging hard parts, though IMO it's good to accelerate a little through most corners for this and a lot of other reasons, which means by necessity entering slightly slower than you would if you were off the gas.

On the track, yes, I would go WOT and lean the bike a little further. Screw around with that on the street using street tires, and you might put yourself on your head, though. My advice on the street, generally, is not to accelerate hard in a corner until you see your exit.

If your bike tends to stand up when you accelerate, it might mean that there is a geometry problem, or a tire problem. Sorting out the tire pressure and suspension will help a lot, as may lowering the front end, or raising the rear end a little.

No, I wouldn't suggest cranking pre-load up to maximum... Just make sure that it's set correctly. Ideally, the suspension should compress about an inch to an inch and a half from completely unloaded (on the center stand) to having your butt on the seat. Less than that, and you can easily top-out, compromising traction. More than that and you tend to bottom out, and compromise cornering clearance.

I'd strongly advice against an aggressive entry on any corner you can't see all the way through. People like to talk about being smooth, and riding the pace, but IMO, it's not actually a safe approach. Being smooth through each corner is good, but each corner must be handled at it's own pace, and a pace that's safe through one corner can be very dangerous through another.

When I go sport touring, there are very few corners I'm willing to get anywhere close to pushing the limits in. Some of the best roads tend to be those that follow a river, because they provide excellent visibility on the river side. So, when I have the river to my left, I'll tend to ride much more aggressively through left handers than right handers, due to the visibility concerns.

My advice to you, is do not push the limits. Focus on following a good line through every corner. Work on using your eyes well, and remember to always look one step ahead. E.g. once you know you can hit your braking point, look for your turn-in point. Once you're headed for your your turn-in point, look for the apex. Once you're on the way to the apex, look for the exit marker. If you can't see your next point, focus on the vanishing point around the corner, or look ahead sufficiently far for maximum confidence.

These skills will help keep you out of a bad situation to begin with. As a friend of mine said: "A superior rider uses superior judgement to avoid situations that require superior skill."

[Phil B]

Adding gas will cause your bike to take a wider line through the corner than you otherwise would. With a lot of experience, you learn to judge the difference. It is a valid technique if you're dragging hard parts, though IMO it's good to accelerate a little through most corners for this and a lot of other reasons, which means by necessity entering slightly slower than you would if you were off the gas.

On the track, yes, I would go WOT and lean the bike a little further. Screw around with that on the street using street tires, and you might put yourself on your head, though. My advice on the street, generally, is not to accelerate hard in a corner until you see your exit.

If your bike tends to stand up when you accelerate, it might mean that there is a geometry problem, or a tire problem. Sorting out the tire pressure and suspension will help a lot, as may lowering the front end, or raising the rear end a little.

No, I wouldn't suggest cranking pre-load up to maximum... Just make sure that it's set correctly. Ideally, the suspension should compress about an inch to an inch and a half from completely unloaded (on the center stand) to having your butt on the seat. Less than that, and you can easily top-out, compromising traction. More than that and you tend to bottom out, and compromise cornering clearance.

I'd strongly advice against an aggressive entry on any corner you can't see all the way through. People like to talk about being smooth, and riding the pace, but IMO, it's not actually a safe approach. Being smooth through each corner is good, but each corner must be handled at it's own pace, and a pace that's safe through one corner can be very dangerous through another.

When I go sport touring, there are very few corners I'm willing to get anywhere close to pushing the limits in. Some of the best roads tend to be those that follow a river, because they provide excellent visibility on the river side. So, when I have the river to my left, I'll tend to ride much more aggressively through left handers than right handers, due to the visibility concerns.

My advice to you, is do not push the limits. Focus on following a good line through every corner. Work on using your eyes well, and remember to always look one step ahead. E.g. once you know you can hit your braking point, look for your turn-in point. Once you're headed for your your turn-in point, look for the apex. Once you're on the way to the apex, look for the exit marker. If you can't see your next point, focus on the vanishing point around the corner, or look ahead sufficiently far for maximum confidence.

These skills will help keep you out of a bad situation to begin with. As a friend of mine said: "A superior rider uses superior judgement to avoid situations that require superior skill."

Thank you for your in-depth and useful information, burning1.Much more useful than some other posts.
as far as preload, I weigh 150, and have it set on default #4.
Currently stock tires, but just ordered some pirelli sport demons.

I do try to look way ahead. But after an hour's riding, Ive unfortunately let my focus drop a time or two. It's tough to be "on", on an unknown road, and suddenly there's a second turn where you werent expecting one.  and it's tighter than the one you just exited.
Tends to be a bit of a focus breaker :-/

It's good to avoid "bad situations". But it's equally important to know what to do if you suddenly find yourself in the middle of one. To take an unforseeable example;  Say , some idiot/squirrel/rock pops up only the side of the road near the apex and you suddenly realize you now need to make that turn 5 feet tighter than you planned.


PS: how do you define "aggressive entry"? 

[burning1]

Everyone has something to add. Any input on a thread like this is good, since it gets people involved and thinking.

Best advice I can give you is to slow down when your focus starts going. With practice, you'll find your endurance increases significantly, and you can keep good focus for longer periods of time with less effort.

Pirelli Sport Demons are good tires. If you're serious about riding, and plan to keep the GS for a while, I'd also advise you to replace the front fork springs with Sonics (.8-.85 should be good for your weight) and consider installing a shock in the back. It'll really help handling.

I'd advise you to measure your preload and adjust to suit. I couldn't tell you what's correct for your weight, since I don't use the stock shock.

Lots of ways to define 'agressive entry,' but I'd suggest that entering a corner at a speed where you can't easily adjust your lines, avoid rocks, handle a decreasing radius turn, etc. is overly aggressive. As your lines and techniques improve, you'll be able to enter corners faster, yet retain more options for avoiding dangerous situations.

In general, I like to use a mellow entry with an aggressive exit. I'll trail the brakes gently into most unknown corners, and turn in late. If the corner is longer or tighter than expected, I'll maintain a little trail braking all the way through the apex. If the corner is exceptionally long, I'll come back in for a 2nd apex and a bit of a drive out.

A typical mellow entrance aggressive exit corner on my GT usually involves a fairly mellow corner entry speed, followed by picking the bike up slightly before the apex and driving hard out of the corner. This approach is good for big bikes like mine, but might not be as exciting on the GS. What I might suggest is approaching all blind corners with caution. When you can see the exit of the corner, slowly and smoothly roll on the gas as you pick up the bike. Continue to roll on the throttle while carrying a little lean angle. You may be able to slowly work your way up to being WOT as you exit, still carrying some decent corner speed.

The key is to be very smooth with the throttle application. The approach is pretty good for the GS, especially since the CV carbs tend to be especially smooth.

If you want an example of how the throttle can be used on corner exit, take a look at this trackday video. I use a fairly reserved entry speed into each corner, because I'm not sure whether or not the rider ahead of me is going to get onto my line. Once I can clearly see that my line is available, I roll on aggressively. You can tell when I get on the gas by comparing my corner speed to the speed on the bigger bikes.

You can see that even on the race track, I don't commit 100% to the corner until I am absolutely sure that it's safe to do so. Most of the time I don't even reach maximum lean angle unless the track is completely clear ahead of me.

[GI_JO_NATHAN]

Awesome info burning1. I tend to naturally trail-brake a lot. Especially on unknown roads, which is what I normally find myself on. If I'm ever in a turn and realize I think I'm over too far, and going too fast, I tend to hang out more and straighten the bike up some so I can add a touch of brake. Front and rear. But once again this is how I tend to ride normally so I've very practiced and used to braking in curves. I wouldn't just do it all the sudden in a panic.

[SAFE-T]

Better to go into a corner slow and come out fast than go in fast and come out dead.

If you ride The Pace, you will almost never exceed a safe entry speed for a corner, and if you did you would still have the ability to slow yourself to a safe speed before you got yourself in too deep.

But really, if you are trying to hone your skills on the open road it's probably just a matter of time before you wind up as lunchmeat.

[Phil B]

In general, I like to use a mellow entry with an aggressive exit. I'll trail the brakes gently into most unknown corners, and turn in late. If the corner is longer or tighter than expected, I'll maintain a little trail braking all the way through the apex. If the corner is exceptionally long, I'll come back in for a 2nd apex and a bit of a drive out.

I find this surprising. Why turn in late?

also, if you have to hard-brake before a turn... I'm guessing its kinda just as bad to quickly release the brake, as it is to clamp on, because it'll mess up the shocks when you're in the turn?
or does that not matter?

[redhawkdancing]

This thread sounds like the beginning of this video! 


http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-II-Keith-Code/dp/0965045072/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317262310&sr=8-1

[burning1]

A late turn in usually results in a better view through the corner, gives you more space at the corner exit, and allows you to get on the gas sooner and harder. It also necessitates a slightly slower entry speed, but compensates with a slightly higher exit speed. It's not always the best solution, but generally it's the preferred approach to a corner.

Yes, it's good to be smooth releasing the brake, especially if you're on the rear brake and the tire starts to slide. If you have a rear brake/rear tire slide, staying on the brake is often safest, but *slowly* releasing the brake is far far better than just letting go of it.