Starting problems

[remn]

My 2008 GS has been having starting problems that come and go for some reason. When I'm having the problem, the lights go on when I turn on the key, but when I try to start the engine it barely cranks (like 1 or 2 times), then there's a sort of buzzing noise, almost like a door buzzer, coming from the general area of the engine--can't tell for sure of it's the starter area or somewhere else. No matter how many times I try it just does this over and over. So I end up push starting and the bike runs fine. The strange thing is that this problem comes and goes. It's started and stopped 3 or 4 times over the last few months. Obviously it's not the battery, I'm wondering what could be causing this? Judging from the buzzing noise I'm thinking it's an electrical problem, but I could use some advice on where to start looking. And I don't get why the problem would come and go if it was electrical. I'm wondering if maybe there's some foreign particle floating around someplace where it shouldn't be, somehow getting caught up in the wrong place then shaking loose. If nothing works I'll just take the bike to a shop, but I'm hoping to be able to fix this myself. Then again, I'm getting good exercise from all that push-starting 

[Paulcet]

Probably a loose connection.  Check everything between the battery and the starter.  Ground connections, too.  Also connections to/from the rectifier/regulator. 

But you can't rule out the battery until you really test it.  If a battery isn't regularly used or well-maintained, it will be bad in a couple of years.

[mister]

Why isn't it the battery?

How's the battery level? How tight are the connections? You do have 3 wires on the negative terminal don't you?

Michael

[adidasguy]

Buzzing noise: starter relay.

When you press the starter button, it energizes a relay. That relay then makes a connection to the starter motor, making it turn.

Now, imagine a poor battery or bad connection. Not enough current is there or can flow.
Starter relay closes.
Starter motor turns on, sapping all the power.
Now not enough power to keep that relay energized so relay opens up.
When relay is open, starter motor is not powered. Now there is extra power available so the starter relay now closes again.

The process repeats and repeats and repeats - buzzing sound is that relay opening and closing repeatedly very fast.

Cars can do the same thing - but the relay is bigger so it can't open and close as fast so it sounds more like crickets or cards in the spokes of a bike. Who hasn't ever heard that clicking sound as your car battery dies an untimely death?
Click mmmmmmmOOOOOOmmm
Click mmmmmOOOOOOOmmmm
Click click click click click click
a final Click Tink
Oh, danm, the battery just died.



Check and CLEAN your battery connections and do what the others told you to do.

[remn]

Thanks for the replies. The reason I don't think it's the battery itself is because I installed a brand new battery a couple months ago, and continued having the same problems I had been having with the previous battery. Also I'm an everyday rider, almost never use my car, so I doubt it's the result of long periods of not being run (that has been happening with my car though--had to hook the car battery up to a tender  ).

So if it's not the actual battery, it must be a connection. Or maybe the starter relay itself (is that an actual part, or just a term for the whole series of connections from battery to starter?). I'm still wondering why the problem comes and goes though. Anyway, I'll get out my Haynes manual and check all the connections.

[adidasguy]

That buzzing after a while indicates low voltage. Yes, there really is a starter relay. Should be the same module that has your fuse. Connected to the battery with a short red wire, that module is  actually the first thing that the battery connects to.
Have you checked your voltage with a meter?
Quite possible you've got problems with the charging.
Another possibility is you leave the bike in PARK. When you do that, the tail light is on dim. That will drain the battery slowly.
A meter is a great way to see what's happening. If 13v now, and 11v in the morning then either bad battery or something is on and draining power (or a short somewhere causing power to drain away).

A meter is like $10 at Radio Crap or somewhere else. You don't need a fancy one. All test DC, AC and resistance so a good tool to have.

Sometimes I wish I still had my old analog meter. Digital meters sample a certain number of times a second. With fluctuating voltages (as when alternator or rectifier is bad) a digital meter goes bonkers or doesn't give a proper reading. On an analog meter, you'd see the needle wiggling and know voltage is not stable. (Well, I do have one on a circuit test/build prototype board if I need one or can get out the oscilloscope if really in the mood)

My first plan of attack on your bike would be a meter at the battery. You can run 2 wires from the battery (you want a direct connection) so the meter can be wherever is convenient. I'd expect to see 12-13v. With the bike running, I'd expect to see 13-14v because the charging system is trying to charge the battery. If I don't see any change with the bike running and bike off, its not charging it or doing a very poor job of it. Running the bike and reading voltage, then hit the kill switch and see what it does. I'd also check voltage at night then in the morning.

Other possibilities, since it seems power drains fast when starting the bike, is bad starter relay (bad coil shorting and draining power), short anywhere along the starter button wires or wire to starter motor. Or a bad starter motor, which is draining away power really fast.

After thought: If power is draining that fast, I would think that would be such a high current draw that the fuse would blow. That brings me back to bad battery or battery is not getting charged. If you were in Seattle, I'd say bring him to the bike cave and let's see what's happening, swapping parts just for giggles to see if we fix it. What size fuse is there? (don't confuse the spare fuse with the one in use. Spare is in the open. One in use is under the rubber cover.)

[the mole]

My 2c:
Read the post above.

If your charging system is not working or not working well, you'd get the symptoms you describe.

[remn]

So I checked the battery and the voltage was as you said it should be, Adidasguy. I also cleaned the terminals. That didn't fix the problem, so I checked the starter relay. It looked like there was some corrosion, so I cleaned it, but that didn't fix it either. However, when I was trying to start the bike after cleaning the relay, I could tell that that's definitely where the buzzing sound is coming from. Right from the relay itself. Does this mean it needs replacement, or do I need to check some other electrical connections? I'm planning on doing the troubleshooting routine from the Haynes manual, but I need to buy some tools before I can do that. Thanks for the advice, it's already helping me zero in on the problem 

[adidasguy]

If you have corrosion around the starter relay, it is possible it is corroded inside as well.

1. What is the voltage at the battery?
2. What is the voltage with the starter button pressed?
3. You can bypass the starter relay. I'm not looking at one right now, but you can short the contacts of the starter relay to start the bike. If the bike turns over fine, then the starter relay is corroded.
4. When shorting the contacts, if the voltage drops and cranking is slow, then possibly the starter motor is bad.

You mention that it came and went and random times. There could be a pinched wire or thin insulation on a wire for the starter relay or to the starter motor. You can measure voltage at the starter motor and the battery. Wire has very little loss, so the voltage at both places should be about the same. Same for measuring voltage on each side of the contacts of the starter relay when starting.

If voltage across relay contacts (measure each side) is the same, then the starter relay contacts are OK. If not the same, then starter relay contacts are not conducting so replace starter relay.

If voltage at starter motor is lower than voltage at battery (sometimes handy to use 2 el-cheapo meters and measure both places at the same time) that would indicate a short in the wiring to the motor - as some of the electricity is shorting to the frame and not getting to the motor. Providing you've ruled out the starter relay contacts (either by measuring voltage on each side or shorting the contacts with a screwdriver).

I would not rule out a bad battery. Try this. With the meter connected, what happens if the bike is turned on with the headlight on after 5 minutes? A good battery should be fine with 5 minutes running the headlight. Check at 2 minutes and 3 minutes. It shouldn't drop voltage running the headlight for that time. If it does, then I'd get the battery tested. Is it possible it is not the right battery? A battery too small in capacity? Could one cell of the battery be going bad intermittently?

[remn]

So I was planning on trying what you suggested after work yesterday, but when I got to my bike, the starting problem went away and it started up normally 

Usually once it starts working again it lasts for at least a few days, but when I tried to start this morning, the same problems again 

So (here's something I never thought I'd say) hopefully the problem will continue for awhile  That way I can get a chance to try bypassing the starter relay and measuring voltage at the starter motor. I'll do those things over the weekend and report back. Thanks again for the very useful tips.

[remn]

So it turns out the voltage on the battery was low. Adidasguy, I misunderstood your earlier e-mail when I said the voltage was "as you said it should be." I thought you meant it should be 2 volts under the battery's 12-volt rating, and the reading I got was 10 volts with the ignition turned on, and about 8.5 with the ignition off. I now realize that was way low. I re-charged the battery with my battery tender, and this morning it started fine. Unless this is another one of those random flukes (which I doubt), it has been a battery issue all along. I don't think it's a defective battery though, since I was having the same problem with my last battery, which I switched out a couple months ago (this is why I didn't think it was a battery issue).

So I'm guessing it's a problem with the charging system. I haven't been leaving it on 'park', leaving the ignition on, or anything like that. I guess I'll start looking into that. If the problem persists, at least now I know I have a temporary fix with my battery tender. Thanks so much for all your feedback. Adidasguy, your advice has finally freed me from my twice-daily push-starts 

[remn]

I hope too much time hasn't gone by to resurrect this thread, but I wanted to get some time dealing with this starting issue before posting again, so I could try to make my post clearer than my original one.

So as I said in my last post, the bike started fine after recharging the battery on a battery tender. I've been having to re-charge it every so often, but then I noticed that the starting problems tend to come when it's cold. Even right after charging it it will refuse to start after sitting in the cold for awhile. Last night I charged it overnight, then tried starting at 6:30am, with the temp around the low 50's. It wouldn't start. I could hear the starter turning over a few times, but then it would just stop. So clearly the main problem is with cold starts. The only reason it wasn't starting even in warm weather before is because the battery had gotten so depleted from trying over and over. Now that I'm using the tender it always starts when it's warm out, and I never get that buzzing sound from the starter relay (even when it's cold). So my guess is that the starter just isn't getting enough juice from the batter, so it will only work when it's warm and the engine is easier to start.

Adidasguy, I took some of the measurements you suggested with my multimeter. After a charge I get 12 volts with the ignition on but the bike not running. Running, it's at 14 volts, which is just the way you said it should be. I also tried leaving the lights on (low beam) for 5 minutes, and after that it was at 10 volts. I measured the voltage after starting and riding a few times without using the tender, and it's still at 12 volts--so I don't think it's a problem with the charging system.

I have that Scorpion battery that gets recommended around here a lot:

http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/motorcycle/sYT10L-A2.html

I don't think the problem is with the battery itself, because I was having the same problem with my last battery, which is why I bought the Scorpion a few months ago. The problem went away for awhile after I got the Scorpion and I thought it was fixed, but now I think that was just because it was summer  So I'm guessing it must be a wiring thing. Any tips on where I should start looking? The starter relay had quite a bit of corrosion on the connections when I checked it--even though that didn't turn out to be the problem, I'm wondering if there might be corrosion somewhere else? I checked the regulator and there wasn't any corrosion, but I cleaned the connections there anyway. Also cleaned the battery terminals. I've been looking at the wiring diagram from the Haynes manual, but it's a bit confusing for this noob. Any ideas on what to try next?

[NorwayGT1]

In my case it was the plug that goes to the carb on the right hand side.. if thats not properly plugged in all my bike does is sit and click! I got an 05 not sure what year your bike is but wouldnt hurt checking man

[twinrat]

REMM i have replaced many batterys and have found if you charge a new battery  overnight on a low voltage before you ever use it the first time you will rarlly have a battery problem.the reason for this is you dont know how long they have been in stock .

[scratch]

Engine ground wire: http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=10015

[remn]

Thanks for the tip scratch, I didn't even know there was an engine ground wire  Just to be sure which one it is in Kerry's pic--it's the thinner wire between the two thicker ones, with the little metal bit around it, right? I'll check that over the weekend--anything else I should be looking at in case that's not it? I'm assuming it's not a spark plug issue because then the bike would be having problems running, not just starting. I'm also assuming it's not the fuse because then there'd be issues with the lights. I've already checked/cleaned the battery terminals, regulator and starter relay. Any other possible causes? Hopefully it's the ground wire so I can get this problem fixed before a multi-day camping trip I've got coming up. I don't relish the idea of trying to push-start my bike at 6am with 100 lbs of luggage strapped to it