What do you think the Occupy movement is about ?

[The Buddha]

I didn't look in that link mister - cant @ work.

However this link -
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/02/occupys-comforts-draw-u-s-homeless/

Has this part in the body -
Occupy protesters have largely welcomed the homeless in their makeshift communities, touting them as a legitimate part of the 99 percent and sharing food and medical assistance.

Seriously that sounds very logical and very I dunno, nice and heartwarming, of course the homeless are one of the 99% obviously.

Maybe I should stop calling them "we want your 99 cents" ...

Cool.
Buddha.

[mister]

When you get a chance, do check at the link I posted - here it is again http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GmsCdyGD00

99%, 1% more division. Us vs Them, yeah yeah yeah. No clear definitions. Isn't that what saw many without heads in the French Revolution?

Michael

[bill14224]

its about taking back our country from the corrupt corporate/military/political system.

Hanging out in the streets creating 30 tons of trash someone else has to pick up because you're too lazy and inconsiderate to clean-up after yourself won't solve the problem.  Studying hard, working hard, paying attention, and voting accordingly will fix the problem.  Oh, yeah.  That's too much work.  The reason we're losing our republic is too few people act like they deserve one.  Most of our population doesn't even know what a republic is, especially those in these orchestrated "movements".

And Michael, yes, there is a parallel between this and the French Revolution.  When you don't understand what you're fighting against many innocent people end up dying needlessly.

[mister]

I think this fits...

Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Michael

[ghostrider_23]

Mister,

touché Sir

[The Buddha]

You know there is too many problems with the ... constitution ... and no I am not suggesting we discard it ... however that was written with the intent that whoever becomes an elected leader be it in a local govt or in the federal level ... they do their term/time and go back to their old job. That way also works best ... you get people with real world experience and they go back to their normal life when done allowing for the next iteration of people with real world experience.

However it fails in the face of today's reality.

You have to take a good many months off to get the word out before you get elected, that means you're out of work for 6 months+, then when you're done with your term ... your old job ... well it is now done by a guy in china. You're going to have to find a new line of work ... that leaves you with well, bills ... which never stop.
The quint idea of "people from all walks of life forming the government" all worked when people were all land barons and they didn't have a life that involved credit cards and college expenses for kids and house payments and what not. The modern day career politician is a result of those factors. If they dont get elected, they then have to work for companies that need a politician - aka lobbyist.

I dont know what the occupy movement is, but it is not going to bring about a real change.

Cool.
Buddha.

[madjak30]

I agree that there will be little, if any, change from the OWS movement...they missed their opportunity for making a difference about six weeks ago (in my opinion anyway)...six weeks ago, most of us had taken notice and were asking "what is this thing about?"...now, well I really don't care and just want them to go away...and if that means arrests, so be it...they lacked the leadership and unity to come up with a message...other than we are not happy...got that, and I think everyone has their reason to be unhappy with what is happening in the world...

I think they should all be charged and fined for not following the bylaws of camping in a public space...given a criminal record...then they can deal with trying to find a meaningful career, or trying to travel with that on their record...

I know that won't be a popular stance, but I just don't care anylonger (if I ever did)...I'm getting sick of hearing about it in the news (costing our local, state/provincial government dollars just having debate on how to handle it)...do they actually believe that they will have their student loans forgiven and they will put a profit cap on industry, forcing corporations to pass on the surplus profits to social programs?? 

GET A GRIP!! 



Later.

[The Buddha]

The real gripe the occupy movement has - I'd sum up in 1 sentence ...

Employees who make 50K are taxed @ 35%.
Employees who make 50 mill are taxed and 15%.

That was 2 sentences, sorry.

Given that statment I'd seriously say the tax system is not even close to being fair.

The students in California who got pepper sprayed were protesting their university presidents several million salary.

I will be the first to admit some jobs are harder than others. I actually have spent 18 years in this field and the job I am @ for the last year is just about the hardest I have ever done, it also is the most entertaining and interesting, but hard for sure.

I ocassionally stretch into a 45 or even a 50 hour week.

That IMHO deserves a bit extra compensation, say 10% more than the other jobs I have had, but I cannot see any job, however difficult it is, and remember its a job, not a business ... job - JOB - working for some organisation/business/govt etc, needing to pay over 200-300K a yr, the president makes 400K right, I dont see any one who can stand up and say with a straight face they have a job that is so difficult that they need to make 8 million a year and not pay more than 15% in taxes.

For difficulty of the job and the training needed I'd seriously say doctors, especially heart and brain surgeons need to make more $$$ than the president does, all the rest dont.

Again talking jobs - like the CEO of a university or a company - they dont have a difficult job really. Nothing is @ risk, its a job.

Once again given that taxes are levied - yes taxes may be theft - yes I will nod to that, but given that the dude who is fixing electrical lines after the tree fell on it is making 50K and paying 35% I dont see why any bloody CEO isn't charged that same %.

Cool.
Buddha.

[The Buddha]

I agree that there will be little, if any, change from the OWS movement...they missed their opportunity for making a difference about six weeks ago (in my opinion anyway)...six weeks ago, most of us had taken notice and were asking "what is this thing about?"...now, well I really don't care and just want them to go away...and if that means arrests, so be it...they lacked the leadership and unity to come up with a message...other than we are not happy...got that, and I think everyone has their reason to be unhappy with what is happening in the world...

I think they should all be charged and fined for not following the bylaws of camping in a public space...given a criminal record...then they can deal with trying to find a meaningful career, or trying to travel with that on their record...

I know that won't be a popular stance, but I just don't care anylonger (if I ever did)...I'm getting sick of hearing about it in the news (costing our local, state/provincial government dollars just having debate on how to handle it)...do they actually believe that they will have their student loans forgiven and they will put a profit cap on industry, forcing corporations to pass on the surplus profits to social programs?? 

GET A GRIP!! 



Later.

I actually dont think that 6 week time frame was that important. A true country wide grass roots organisation will have a lot of local twists and turns ... a place that was polluted by the oil spill and hence the shrimp boaters lost their livelihood may be different than where students are protesting the exorbitant salaries of the college administrative staff.

However they started out asking for a waiver of college loans ... there they lost me. Of course they are now making a lot better sense and maybe they will get to the positive sometime.

This isn't a political movement ... so I dont see it doing much of anything - except something bad.
Cool.
Buddha.

[mister]

Tax is on a sliding scale. but let's imagine it isn't for the sake of the arguement...

$50k at 35% tax = $17,500 in tax
$50mil at 15% tax = $7,500,000 in tax (and you want him to pay more?!??!!!?)

Taxing people's income is NOT the answer. Is isn't now and nor was it ever.

Michael

[The Buddha]

Tax is on a sliding scale. but let's imagine it isn't for the sake of the arguement...

$50k at 35% tax = $17,500 in tax
$50mil at 15% tax = $7,500,000 in tax (and you want him to pay more?!??!!!?)

Taxing people's income is NOT the answer. Is isn't now and nor was it ever.

Michael

Good point mister -
So you're saying -
A family living on 50K a year after 35% tax lives on $32,500.
A family living on 50 million after 15% tax lives on $42,500,000. And you want them to have more ?

Taxing income was not the answer, however it is a simple way to tax - any other method will lead to rampant fraud and extreme complications in people's lives ... and given that income is taxed - you think it should be sliding this much ?

Consumption based tax will be a real beeeyatch to collect and a huge can of worms will be opened up as to what is consumption and what isn't.

Cool.
Buddha.

[mister]

Tax is on a sliding scale. but let's imagine it isn't for the sake of the arguement...

$50k at 35% tax = $17,500 in tax
$50mil at 15% tax = $7,500,000 in tax (and you want him to pay more?!??!!!?)

Taxing people's income is NOT the answer. Is isn't now and nor was it ever.

Michael

Good point mister -
So you're saying -
A family living on 50K a year after 35% tax lives on $32,500.
A family living on 50 million after 15% tax lives on $42,500,000. And you want them to have more ?

Taxing income was not the answer, however it is a simple way to tax - any other method will lead to rampant fraud and extreme complications in people's lives ... and given that income is taxed - you think it should be sliding this much ?

Consumption based tax will be a real beeeyatch to collect and a huge can of worms will be opened up as to what is consumption and what isn't.

Cool.
Buddha.

Consumption tax - as you put it - is easy to collect. No more difficult than asking every employer and self employed person to take out income tax of all employees.

Again, my income is my property. NO PERSON has a right to just take it as they see fit, no matter what Good Works it is claimed for. As I have said elsewhere, if *I* cannot come into your home and take your money for my needs, then no-one can, even if they wear funny hats, give themselves fancy titles with 'authority" in the same and call themselves govt.

We have Goods and Services tax. A 10% tax on all goods and services at the retail price. If you want to know the tax it is simple to work out. Add 10% of the cost to come up with the selling price. So you want to sell that $275 thing, add $27.50 for GST to get$302.50. If you are a buyer and want to know how much tax is being paid, divide the sale price by 11... $302.50/11= $27.50. Simple as. Much more simple than asking someone to calculate... first $10k earned is tax free, next $7k is taxed at 17c in the dollar, next $10 is taxed at 23c and so on until every dollared earned is taxed at 48c in the dollar.

Taxing people more cause they earn more is a Disincentive.

Income tax is theft, plain and simple. Doesn't matter how you try to justify it, what fancy names you want to call it, it what good-works reasons you want to claim it for, it is still theft. And the govt has no right to take it.

The economy is all about money in circulation. The person who got to keep their $42mil doesn't just hide it in a sock drawer. They spend a good portion of it - on their home, other investment homes (which need to be built) other business activities which Employ People as well as other investments where others manage the money and do similar things with it.

If you buy into the "lets tax them even more" mantra you are falling for the elitists ploy. By putting in larger taxes Now, after they are quite very wealthy and which taxes won't hurt them and they know all the accountants to get out of paying them, the only people then hurt more are those Trying to be better off. thus, they cannot then hope to also join those wealthy ranks cause taxes are taking their income and preventing them.

Michael

[The Buddha]

Its not that easy to hit people with a consumption tax, cos there are a lot of things that are never recorded.
There is already an underground economy that is escaping taxation to the order of 20% in the US.
Put in a consumption based tax and remove the income based tax and you will easily see that number jump to 50%.

There is a lot of commerce going on via craigslist, stalls @ the side of the road, farms and farm stands, as well as things like flea markets and farmers markets. There is no paperwork for any of those ... and atleast now that is all done on a cash basis with after tax income that atleast has been taxed 1 time. Change that to being taxed @ consumption and you instantly lose that. India was that way back when I was a young un ... it may still be I dont know, and the only resort is in that case to print $ for all govt activity ...

I am fine with that, replace taxation with inflation. But not taxation with another more difficult to track and account taxation.

Cool.
Buddha.

[The Buddha]

Taxing people more cause they earn more is a Disincentive.

Michael

Except ... these people produce nothing, they are paper pushers, or to be fair CEO's and executives. They produce lots of cool looking graphs and what not. These are people employed by various companies as executives.

I dont see why a CEO isn't needed to pay 35% when I do. Yes everyone should pay 0% and we should print $ ...
And not paying a CEO 42 million as opposed to just 32million is going to prevent him from showing up @ the office ?

They dont all spend the 42 million either, they get it into trusts and so on and it goes from generation to generation without any record of it.
Cool.
Buddha.

[ghostrider_23]

The more and more I think about the way life is and where it's going I believe it's time for a revolution.

Maybe 2012 is the end of old things and the start of new beginnings.

[yamahonkawazuki]

The more and more I think about the way life is and where it's going I believe it's time for a revolution.

Maybe 2012 is the end of old things and the start of new beginnings.

yet without a solution to any percieved problems, a revolution wouldnt succeed. so ifOWS, wants payto be equal, then the mailroom clerk can be responsible for paying bills, at said company, can be heldresponsible for expenses as well right?. my opinion isthis. IF a company isnt under any federal bailout arrangement then there shoudl be no control of salaries. HOWEVER if bailed out then all contracts are to be negated. because many of these banks were bailedout yet bonuses were still paid. ( because of contracts ) we bailed out GM, and obummer created shovel ready projects... in mexico. 

[madjak30]

I've often wondered why we don't have a flat tax system...everyone just pays 25%, no loop holes...but the graduated taxation system that we have is hard to justify in my opinion...the more you make here in Canada, the more you pay in taxes...you make a personal amount, which is tax free (if you don't make more than this, you don't pay taxes), then it jumps to 15%...then 22%...then  26%...then 29%...(these are just the federal taxes, there are still provincial taxes that are another 10%...)

Sometimes your raise puts you into the next tax bracket and you actually bring home less money...I knew guys that used to take every second Friday off, because their take home didn't change (actually was higher by $10 or something like that)...so really, unless you make a pile more money...there isn't as much incentive to make more...but I'm chasing my career, not just the money (although the money is nice  )

As for Buddha being so negative on the CEO & VPs...they have the stressful job of dealing with the shareholders and bean counters...not an easy task...and they need to bleed the company colours...so I really don't have a problem with them making the big bucks...you try and run a company without direction...it will work fine for a small company, but as you grow and diversify...all the "chiefs" want to go their direction and the company starts to get fragmented...that's where the value of good leadership steps in...

Capitolism does work...it may just need some fine tuning in the taxation department...I still don't get the sentiment of hating someone for doing well...it's America, the land of opportunity...go grab a handful!! (can't believe a Canadian has to tell you this... )



Later.

[The Buddha]

As for Buddha being so negative on the CEO & VPs...they have the stressful job of dealing with the shareholders and bean counters...not an easy task...and they need to bleed the company colours...so I really don't have a problem with them making the big bucks...you try and run a company without direction...it will work fine for a small company, but as you grow and diversify...all the "chiefs" want to go their direction and the company starts to get fragmented...that's where the value of good leadership steps in...

Capitolism does work...it may just need some fine tuning in the taxation department...I still don't get the sentiment of hating someone for doing well...it's America, the land of opportunity...go grab a handful!! (can't believe a Canadian has to tell you this... )



Later.

I deal with lots of these annoying people too ... users and managers and problem solvers and what not.

Its not that they dont deserve to make more ... just not 1000 X more.

The tax bracket thing, the thing is only the part that is in the next tax braket needs to be taxed @ the higher %.
Say its 25% for 50K, and 60K its 28%, you need to be paying 28% of 10K and 25% of 50. The whole thing @ 28% I suspect is a canadian phenomenon.

Cool.
buddha.

[madjak30]

I think that's how Canada manages to be the most taxed nation (well, one of the most taxed...)...how do you think we can afford our medical system... (I use the term afford loosely...)



Later.

[Phil B]

...
However it fails in the face of today's reality.

You have to take a good many months off to get the word out before you get elected, that means you're out of work for 6 months+, then when you're done with your term ... your old job ... well it is now done by a guy in china. You're going to have to find a new line of work ...

Err.. in "the old days", people had to take even MORE time to campaign, for any large type of office.
No TV. No Radio. No Internet. No Airoplanes. Not even telephones. Barely even trains. They used to ride back and forth on the back of trains.
google "whistlestop" sometime. Oh wait, meaning polluted over time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistle_stop_train_tour

Anyways, all that combined with what you already said, is why you never have had a "poor" guy run for state or US office.
It would be a great thing if "the internet age" changed that.
You'd still not have a regular 9-5 guy elected. But you might at least have an "independant contractor" type guy run and win.

I dont know what the occupy movement is, but it is not going to bring about a real change.

that, is very true though.