RIP Little Buddy

[Electrojake]

Anytime I use the rear brake, I know exactly what it will do.
It is very predictable.
I have 3 bikes: 1992, 1994 and 2009. All operate the same.
I don't have to remember what bike I'm on - the brakes are the same.

Most people think I'm nuts when I complain about the GS500 rears but I have indeed had a few replies to my previously posted complaints on this forum with comments like. . .
"Exactly"
and statements like. . .
"So it's not just me then"
I've done a lot of work to my bike to make it (comfy) and perfect as possible for my needs but getting the rear brakes right has always alluded me.
Guess I gotta' borrow another guys GS some day to truly vent my demons.
Thanks,
-Ej-
EDIT: Tucsondog, sorry I hijacked. I just had to vent a little.

[adidasguy]

Well, come to Seattle. United (Continental) about 6 direct flights a day.
Or maybe I'll look you up next time I'm in Newark (condo near Newark Penn Station).

then we'll compare notes 

[Twisted]

I have to agree that the rear brake on the GS can be touchy. It does not seem to require much input at all to lock up and I only noticed this after I bought my Ducati Monster which has Brembo callipers and noticed the difference. You almost have to stand on the Ducatis rears to lock them. 

[pave_spectre]

I don't think it is the whole of the rear brake that is the problem per se.

I think it is just an issue with lever feedback. ie there is none. In my car I can feel how much pressure I am applying and easily modulate it. Same deal with the front brake on the GS. I can feel how much pressure I am applying and adjust. The rear brake however seems to have no feedback, so no matter if I am wearing heavy bike boots or thin soled sneakers, I have no way of feeling how much rear brake pressure there is untill the back end starts to stepout. I have even tried using rear brake alone on empty roads, and while I can estimate how quickly I am slowing down I can still not judge how much pressure I am applying.

I compensate for this by starting with the rear brake to ensure I am using some, but only ever slightly and focus mainly on the front brake.

[Electrojake]

I think it is just an issue with lever feedback. ie there is none. In my car I can feel how much pressure I am applying and easily modulate it. Same deal with the front brake on the GS. I can feel how much pressure I am applying and adjust. The rear brake however seems to have no feedback, so no matter if I am wearing heavy bike boots or thin soled sneakers, I have no way of feeling how much rear brake pressure there is until the back end starts to stepout.

My point exactly.
The brakes on my Yamaha (for example) were simply "idiot proof".
You could lock them up if you truly wanted to but it took a dedicated effort to do it.
Very similar to the front brake on my GS500F. . .
I can lock up the front if I truly want to, but it takes a very specific and dedicated effort to get it to happen.

And adidasguy, the possibility of me bringing you my farkled & spotless 2007 GS500F to Newark for a torture-test is high.
I'll give you the bike (and a set of rosary beads), and you run her through the mean streets of Newark while placing "emphasis" on the rear brake.
Scoring goes like this. . .
a.) You make it back alive = You were right! My rider skills need improvement.
b.) You launch into orbit on a tucsondog approved high-sider = I was right! Rear brakes have no feel.

But something still doesn't seem right though,
I guess we can work it out at show time.
And Thanks crew all for the input on this issue.
Regards,
-Ej-

[adidasguy]

I feel good feedback and know how hard to press.

We've hijacked the thread. This should go somewhere else.

[Hall]

Glad you're ok

[Electrojake]

I feel good feedback and know how hard to press.
We've hijacked the thread. This should go somewhere else.

Hijacked the thread? Please don't send us to the Tard Farm. We'll be OK here.
The reason tucsondog crashed was a rear brake issue on a GS500 so we merely biased the topic away from the "crash" issue and got specific with the "brakes" part of it.

Your GS500 experience far exceeds mine so I can only say that "my" GS has horrid rears as compared to my other bikes.
IMHO it feels as if the back of the bike is simply too light for the rear brake system, thus it is difficult (impossible?) to tell if the rear brake is:
1.) properly applied,
2.) not applied at all, or
3.) locked-up and skidding merrily down the road.

I myself prefer "idiot-proof" brakes since I am, well, somewhat less that an expert at this biker stuff.
Peace,
-Ej- 

[adidasguy]

Needs its own thread.

[Dizzledan]

Ouch man, that had to hurt terribly. I'm glad you're alive and okay, and that the bike took most of the damage. Here's hoping for a speedy recovery and a new bike next Spring!

[Phil B]

I hit the brakes hard, stupidly locking up the rear wheel. I felt it swing out to my left past 45 degrees.
At this point, I did the worst thing i could, and slightly released the rear brake....
The last thing i remember, is the rear wheel gaining traction, the bike snapping back underneath me, and being launched towards the median (going ~55 kph by now...) and thinking "oh f***..."

...
Make sure you have all your gear... make sure you're on the right road... and when in a rear wheel skid NEVER RELEASE THE REAR BRAKE! Oh, and Amazing Grace via bagpipes is the perfect remembrance-video music...

ookay, sooo.. what do you think you "should" have done?
I see a lot of "dont" mentality. But no "DO" mentality.
What "should" you have done, when the back wheel has already slide around "45 degrees"? Just let the bike slide around more, and throw you off that way?

Seems like there should be a better option, but what do I know...

[Dizzledan]

ookay, sooo.. what do you think you "should" have done?
I see a lot of "dont" mentality. But no "DO" mentality.
What "should" you have done, when the back wheel has already slide around "45 degrees"? Just let the bike slide around more, and throw you off that way?

Seems like there should be a better option, but what do I know...

From what I've read and been told, whenever the rear locks, as long as the bike is relatively straight, its okay to release and re-apply. If you lock it in a corner, or in a situation where the rear slides out, you just mash on it harder and keep it locked, because as long as your front wheel isn't locked, you'll be guided by it.

"Proficient Motorcycling" by David Hough (at your local library  ) has excellent explanations and diagrams on panic braking and 'what-if' scenarios, as well as motorcycling in general.

[ASUDave]

The MSF course I took earlier this year basically said:

Front brake locks, release and reapply.
Rear brake locks, keep it locked until you stop.

[mister]

Eventually the bike will straighten up when the rear is locked and goes to the side.

What he Should have done was realized he was in the wrong lane to begin with. That the wrong lane was not noticed shows a lack of paying attention. Rider error. Blame street lights or reflectors all you like, it's still rider error in the final analysis.

I have no issues with the rear brake. Sometimes I only use it, other times only front, and other times both. I can feel it quite well.

Michael

[tucsondog]

Thanks for the well wishes, recovery is coming along nicely, still a ton of bruising though...

As for coulda-woulda-shoulda and bad brakes....
The breaks were in excellent condition. I bled them at the end of September, and the pads were fantastic. As for the tire, it was a tad worn, but still had a ton of tread and air pressures were spot on.

It came down to thinking i was on a different road, and coming in about 40kph faster than i should have for that corner.
ABS may have helped, but I doubt it would have made a significant difference.
Had I had ABS, and braked in a straight line. I doubt I would have avoided a collision with the barrier anyway. I weigh 230 lbs with gear, on a 450 lb bike... so almost 800lbs of man & machine trying to go from 80-0 within <100 ft. In a PERFECT world, one should be able to to this on a high performance bike in 100-120 ft.
Not gonna happen on a GS500F

It came down to I thought i was on a different road. I plan on riding again (don't tell my mother lol), hopefully next season, funds allowing, and will still take my high performance riding course next summer as planned.

Like I said earlier.......... I effed up, and now I have a totalled bike, a broken bone, lots of bruises, and a couple wicked scars.

Brakes = good
Rider = turned off early...

[ohgood]

21:30, October 10, 2011. I was travelling 80kph (the speed limit...) . I turned off one exit too early. The exit I wanted has 500m of straight road & excellent braking distance. The exit i was on runs parallel to the one i wanted. Because i thought i was on the long one, i didn't break until the last minute. I was focused on the distance, about 400m ahead of me, not so much what was under my nose.

What was under my nose was a concrete median.....

I hit the brakes hard, stupidly locking up the rear wheel. I felt it swing out to my left past 45 degrees.
At this point, I did the worst thing i could, and slightly released the rear brake....
The last thing i remember, is the rear wheel gaining traction, the bike snapping back underneath me, and being launched towards the median (going ~55 kph by now...) and thinking "oh f***..."

When I came too, i did a self assessment for injuries, made sure i was out of traffic, and laid still when i heard a passer-by calling for EMS.
When i talked with the police and then went back to the accident site, I had been launched ~20ft through the air, hit the median at about a 60 degree angle head/shoulder first (knocking me out) then slid 40ft along the concrete median until i came to rest. The bike hit the median full on and danced along it until if reached the end of the barrier.

Here is where i crashed:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?saddr=Unknown+road&daddr=Unknown+road&hl=en&sll=51.089221,-114.134581&sspn=0.002258,0.006748&geocode=FeqOCwMdcXAy-Q%3BFfiRCwMd9G8y-Q&vpsrc=0&mra=ls&t=h&z=19

The barrier has 1 street light and NO reflectors on it until it's too late...... An excuse? Perhaps, but it may have helped... I'm not the first one to crash on that corner...

The police, ER staff, and Dr's all said that proper gear saved my life a week ago.

So what have I learned...

Make sure you have all your gear... make sure you're on the right road... and when in a rear wheel skid NEVER RELEASE THE REAR BRAKE! Oh, and Amazing Grace via bagpipes is the perfect remembrance-video music...

i'm thankful you're alive, and also that you're man enough to admit a mistake, and provide us with the knowledge to improve ourselves. thanks for that, heal. 

[Electrojake]

It may seem unproductive at this point in the story but I would have to agree with mister. . .
NOT getting into that situation in the first place is probably the 90% solution. . .
. . . with the remaining 10% being: How does a rider handle going into a curve too hot and with a locked rear wheel, (which even Mr. Hough would likely have difficulty dealing with).
Tucsondog, judging from your last post, you are mighty level-headed about the whole affair. Glad to see your psychology is in good working order. 
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And adidasguy. . .

Needs its own thread.

It pains me to admit it, but I do believe you are correct on that statement.

[burning1]

Adidasguy started another thread on rear brakes. Would love to discuss this, but won't do it here.

[Phil B]

Adidasguy started another thread on rear brakes. Would love to discuss this, but won't do it here.

The other thread seems to mostly be whining about "GS500 brakes are too grippy/not too grippy", rather than, "what is the best way to actually USE them in critical situations".
That's what I'd be interested in.

[burning1]

There have been a few threads like that... One was how to deal with going into a corner too hot, the other about blipping on downshift, which necessitates braking.