Help me with my bad braking and down-shifting habits.

[MistahT]

I've been riding almost a year and my 92 GS500E is my first bike. I'm still learning a few things and I've got some bad habits. I'm not 100% sure how to downshift and brake properly, so I can use any advice you can throw my way.

When I first started riding I was simultaneously braking and downshifting with no throttle blips. Now that I have been working on rev matching and my downshifting, I slow to a stop using my rear brake (no front brake) as I am downshifting and bliping the throttle. I can't operate the front brake and blip the throttle at the same time.

I really feel like dragging the rear brake when downshifting isn't the right thing to do. What can I do to improve my technique? What can I do differently?

[lucky4034]

I'm no pro, so take what I say with a grain of salt.  (I'm a first year rider myself so I am curious to what some of the experienced guys will say)

It seems to me that the main reason for rev-matching is so that by the time you release your clutch completely, you end up with a smooth transitioning between gears.  If you are moving too fast and downshift and release your clutch quickly... the rear tire and your engine will do whatever they can to "rev-match" on their own... 

If you are going way too fast for the gear you dropped into (without rev matching)... then I would think that it could cause your rear wheel to want to temporarily lock as your engine slows your wheel as fast as possible.  My guess is that in a really extreme instance, this could cause either some skidding and/or drastically change the geometry of the bike and throw it off balance.

My guess (again...I'm no pro and could be wrong) is that relying solely on the rear brake could compound the issue??   

[burning1]

More or less spot on, lucky4034.

I generally approach everything with a bit of a track mentality, but btreet riding is very different from track riding... So take my advise for what it's worth.

A blip is a technique used to match the speed of the engine to the speed of the wheel. When done properly, it helps maintain stability, and improves braking performance by helping you to focus on the front brake. It becomes absolutely critical when you start working on very advanced techniques, such as trail braking... But for a novice rider, it should mostly be about being smooth.

To blip the throttle accurately, you need to have the correct hand position. Typically, you'll want to have the tips of your index and middle fingers on the brake, and your ring and pinky fingers wrapped around the throttle. The brake lever should be adjusted comfortably; not at the end of your reach. You should feel like you have a little bend in your brake fingers, so that you have some freedom to turn the throttle without braking.

Order of operations is important here. Mentally, we connect various actions together in a sequence, and if we tie the wrong two actions together in our mind, it can create problems when things don't go quite according to plan.

Here's how to think about it.

1. Apply the front brake smoothly.
2. Allow the revs to drop. You want the engine to fall well below the power band while braking.
3. When the revs are low enough, pull in the clutch, all the way to the handle grip.
4. Shift *do not combine the shift and blip actions!)
5. Blip the throttle as an independent action.
6. As you blip, release the clutch lever.

The interaction between item 5 and 6 are critical. We tend to think about blipping on downshift, but in actuality, you want to blip just before, or as the clutch is released. This subtle distinction will be very important if you find yourself missing shifts.


Keep in mind:

- It's much easier to blip in high gears, but much more important for low gears. When learning, blipping from 6th to 5th will be much easier than from 2nd to 1st. However, the shift from 2nd to 1st is much more likely to upset the bike and lock the wheel.

- It's much easier to blip low in the revs. A downshift at 4000RPM is much easier and safer than a downshift at 7000 RPM.

Good technique should be smooth. You shouldn't be changing your pressure on the brake lever, drive at the wheel, or causing the chassis to pitch during a blip. Ideally, the only way someone should know that you're downshifting is that the engine revs a little higher.

Hope that helps.

[adidasguy]

No reason to blip when downshifting and coming to a stop. Go back to what you used to do - that is more correct.

Best suggestion: go back and re-read your instruction manual when you got your license. Or read the MSF book or any other beginning motorcycle book. Best to read those and get the right facts rather than basing your riding habits on a lot of opinions. Everyone has their own style, so you'll get lots of opinions.

I think all will agree that you must get back into using the front brake. You don't need to blip as you are coming to a stop - just hold the clutch in and down shift as you slow down.

You can hold the throttle with your index finger and thumb while braking with your other 3 fingers. Have have to do that sometimes when bike is cold and needs a little throttle when stopping so it doesn't stall.

[mister]

You do Not Need to blip (blipping is not necessary). Just release the clutch slowly and you'll have no problems.

Don't just clutch in and coast and change down while coasting. I believe that's a bad habit to form. By releasing into each gear as you slow you are always in the right gear for the speed - should you need it in a hurry for whatever reason.

And don't just let go of the clutch. Needs to be slower...

As you change down you release until friction zone grabs a little and then release more rapidly (just like in the car). Helps to start your decrease earlier. Rushing up to a stop or bend and then trying to slow quick is always gonna be a recipe for disaster for the less experienced - and even the experienced when they judge it all wrong.

What you were doing worked for you, go back to it 

Michael

[slipperymongoose]

Yeah I agree with all of the above. I'm only in my first year too and while it would be cool to master its not gonna keep me up at night, I've only just mastered heel n toe in my car. But if your hell bent on doing it you could try this way. Start way way way back from where your going stop, clutch in, shift, blip, then release the clutch, then brake normally. The point is to know exactly how much of a blip is necessary for a smooth shift. Then as you get better introduce breaking as you do it. Remember to start if way way way back. Try on the highway shifting from 6th to 5th. And do a YouTube search for Keith code there is a video of him explaining his technique. I would link it but can't do it on my iPhone.

[reload]

aren't you putting alot of wear on your clutch plates if you don't blip the throttle?

i know for sure with dry clutches it will be problematic...dunno about wet ones.

[slipperymongoose]

GS has 7 clutch plates, wet clutches are designed to be ridden. That's how I do my slow ride, bit of throttle, balance the clutch and use the rear brake so I ride at walking pace. But don't worry about riding your clutch.

[rayshon]

I just blip and downshift with revmatching one or 2 gears and as I approach like 30mph I clutch in and coast while foot/handbraking and downshifting to a stop

[Suzuki Stevo]

Bliping/Rev Matching is great for the track, but is just a bunch of unneeded drama for the street, the fastest way to stop a motorcycle is without downshifting. Race on the track, commute on the street. 

[warlock214]

I agree...get the MSF manual and read then re-read the section on downshifting. I completed my MSF class in July and never once did the instructors said to blip during downshifting. BUT in the MSF manual, it does say to roll the throttle slightly helps the engine come up to speed more quickly and makes the downshift smoother.

[rayshon]

the fastest way to stop a motorcycle is without downshifting.

so you want us to clutch in and coast...and stay in 5th gear? cause to get to 1st/neutral you need to downshift 

also, I blip because it's easier for the engine

blipping
40mph in 4th gear = 4k RPMs, clutch in, kick down to third, blip the throttle a little to 6k, let clutch out, engine doesn't need to get dragged up to 6k from 4k because i blipped it to already be at 6k, so smooth engine braking

no blipping
40mph in 4th gear = 4k rpms, clutch in, kick down to third, let clutch out, engine gets dragged up 2k rpms, jerked hard, lose traction in extreme situations

i know those RPMs are off but you get the idea

[Suzuki Stevo]

so you want us to clutch in and coast...and stay in 5th gear? cause to get to 1st/neutral you need to downshift 

also, I blip because it's easier for the engine

blipping
40mph in 4th gear = 4k RPMs, clutch in, kick down to third, blip the throttle a little to 6k, let clutch out, engine doesn't need to get dragged up to 6k from 4k because i blipped it to already be at 6k, so smooth engine braking

no blipping
40mph in 4th gear = 4k rpms, clutch in, kick down to third, let clutch out, engine gets dragged up 2k rpms, jerked hard, lose traction in extreme situations

i know those RPMs are off but you get the idea

I was referring to a Panic Stop http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=216&Set=



You can downshift/blip if you want to, no harm done any way that you do it. I just close the throttle in 6th and when the Rpm drops below 2000, I start toe tapping. When I was younger bliping was the norm. Now I ride smoother than the underside of a tit, and I never blip.  Whatever makes you happy is the correct answer 

[rayshon]

just close the throttle in 6th and when the Rpm drops below 2000, I start toe tapping. \

Ooh yeah that's what I do too lol, but I only downshift like 1 or 2 gears then i just clutch in and coast

[Suzuki Stevo]

just close the throttle in 6th and when the Rpm drops below 2000, I start toe tapping. \

Ooh yeah that's what I do too lol, but I only downshift like 1 or 2 gears then i just clutch in and coast

I might do that too? I have been riding the Burgman 400 lately (full frontal protection from the cold), I haven't had to shift in weeks!

[Electrojake]

Bliping/Rev Matching is great for the track, but is just a bunch of unneeded drama for the street, the fastest way to stop a motorcycle is without downshifting. Race on the track, commute on the street. 

1.) Bliping/Rev Matching is great for the track, but is just a bunch of unneeded drama for the street,
2.) the fastest way to stop a motorcycle is without downshifting.
3.) Race on the track, commute on the street. 

A perfectly level-headed reply.
Thank you 3 times.

[Suzuki Stevo]

A perfectly level-headed reply.
Thank you 3 times.

Your Welcome...sometimes that 7 years of High School really pays off! 

[MistahT]

Wow, thanks for all the great info - and in less than 24 hours 

I've been working really hard on perfecting my downshifting in normal driving situations as traffic speeds up and slows down, and I think I'm doing it very well. That's not where my problem lies. My problem was primarily with coming to a stop in (for instance) 4th gear. What to do with both brakes and clutch. I have been dragging the rear brake as I downshift.

Someone suggested adjusting the brake lever closer so I can operated the brake and throttle with the same hand simultaneously.... but I'm pretty sure my front brake lever is fixed. As it is now, I need a full reach of my fingers to get the clutch and front brake lever.

I think I will be going back to my old habit when coming to a complete stop. As I approach the traffic light and decelerate quickly, operate both brakes, clutch in, downshift, clutch out, repeat as necessary. Never seemed to hurt the bike, I've just been obsessing over rev-matching. Is this bad for the bike?

My MVF course never taught us a thing about shifting except for how to change gears and telling us to be in the correct gear for our speed. Driving a manual car most of my life, I understood this without a problem. As far as Twist of the Wrist, I've seen the TW2 movie and recently picked up the book.

Thank you all for being a valuable resource!!

[lucky4034]

I routinely downshift and blip... I like having power to the tire should I need it, especially in heavy slow and go traffic. 

I also tend to start slowing down as early as possible to make sure the idiot behind me has to do the same (which minimizes the opportunity to blip altogether) when approaching a stop and cycle through the gears as I need them rather than simply coasting to a stop with the clutch in.  I rely on the engine revving down to do most of the stopping for me rather than eating up the brakes (not sure this is smart or not).  In most cases if you begin to decelerate early enough, you can get by without using much brake at all.

Obviously in an emergency stop adding throttle isn't a good idea so Im not sure how that entered the discussion.  I like Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan myself

[redhawkdancing]

Get the Twist of the Wrist II DVD and practice.  Blipping the throttle isn't necessary on the street most of the time, but I like to have as many tools in my skills box as possible.