Getting to the bottom of my idle problem

[vasama]

Will do. Thanks.

Now I have another problem: The BB's. I've taken most of them out, but some remain, and it seems pretty clear that the tank has some sort of passages or double-skin in some areas, which is making it pretty frustrating to get the last ones out.
Any hints or tips for this? Is there a specific way I should rotate the tank in order to get the balls to go to the bottom, where I could fish them with the magnet?

[vasama]

This is the *white* vinegar after a day in the tank, and a few shakes of the bb's!!! (I honestly thought the tank was clean, based on how the bottom looked when I could see it)

[Kijona]

Excellent work man. Looking really good there! Post a pic of the inside of the tank too, if you can.

As far as retrieving the BB's, just get yourself a magnet, wrap it in cloth (in case you get too close and it decides to grab onto the tank), and hover it around where you suspect the BB's are lodged. Move them out towards the center and then grab them with another magnet (telescopic kind for picking up nuts and bolts in hard to reach places).

Word of advice: don't leave that tank sitting around for too long else it'll start rusting again. Make sure you put a gallon or two of fresh gas in it for now. You can always drain it again later.

[Kijona]

I also wanted to emphasize the importance of making sure there's not a bunch of sediment still in the tank after having been dislodged by the bb's and vinegar. On the second round of vinegar make sure it's almost clear when it comes out. And make SURE you REALLY shake that tank up when you add the gas to it...you want to make sure you get all of the vinegar out.

Good luck to ya, let us know how it goes!

[vasama]

So, I got the carbs out of the pinesol and into boiling water. After about 8 min, a film of gunk started forming at the top of them. I fished out a bit of it. It looks gross:



I took the carbs out after another couple of minutes, and they had this film - that by now was getting more like a solid film - in many places. I took out as much as I could, but clearly, this stuff can and will block the passages if left there. I decided to boil them a bit more.

These are the carbs after I took them out of the boiling water the first time:

[Kijona]

Damn man...I never would've guessed that would happen. I guess it's the pine oil or whatever the hell is in pinesol, solidifying. Is it really super sticky or is it just kind of like...rubber cement..? 

The good news is it's not too late to spray out the passages with good 'ol carb cleaner followed with some compressed air. Just remove what you can and spray them out. Should be fine. Be sure you remove both pilot jets and main jets and spray them out. You might need a strand of copper wire from a lamp cord or similar to get the funk out of the pilot jet.

Carb cleaner should eat right through that funk.

Just do what you feel best about. Let me know what you decide to do and how it turns out.

Edit: It just struck me...see if some regular old gasoline will dissolve that crud. That's obviously the easiest thing to do.

[adidasguy]

Get this tool to clean out the jets and holes:
http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/4/22/278/10115/ITEM/K-L-Carb-Cleaner-Wire-Set.aspx


When in doubt, new jets. They're cheap.
When in doubt, new gaskets.
In fact, when in doubt, go new. Eliminate the unknown. Always leave things better than they were before you started.

My preference  would be find a good set of carbs from a running bike for $100-$150 rather than take 2 weeks cleaning a set and still have them full of gunk. Or send them to PJ Motorsports and for $99 plus parts, they clean and rebuild carbs.

Then I'd use the bad set in my spare time to learn about carbs and see what I could do, while my bike is back together and rideable.

I'd rather be riding.  I do whatever needed to reduce down time. Selling some of my old collections on ebay is financing my obsession with being a parts whore.

PS: When I cleaned Trey's extra set of carbs, I used only carb cleaner, air, new jets, new gasket & O rings, new float needls (even though old ones looked perfect) and replaced all screws with allen head stainless steel.

[bigfatcat]

So, I got the carbs out of the pinesol and into boiling water. After about 8 min, a film of gunk started forming at the top of them. I fished out a bit of it. It looks gross:



I took the carbs out after another couple of minutes, and they had this film - that by now was getting more like a solid film - in many places. I took out as much as I could, but clearly, this stuff can and will block the passages if left there. I decided to boil them a bit more.

These are the carbs after I took them out of the boiling water the first time:

That's the power of Pine Sol, BAby !

Anyone working on carbs should know that that some manufacturers use a sealant to impregnate the metal, because aluminum and zinc castings can be porous - therefore I'd be careful about choice of cleaning agents while making carburettor soup.

There are different formulations for pinesol - the classic has like 10% pine tar, plus some kinda alcohol and other stuff,  that might or might not do damage to fuel system components ie the sealant in the carb material ...
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/what-carburetors-made-146219/

"The die-cast body is generally made of either aluminum or zinc. Since die-cast aluminum tends often to be porous, die-cast aluminum carburetor bodies must first be impregnated with a special sealing material. After casting, the body must be machined to provide numerous orifices, apertures and the like. While zinc may be used as a die-casting material and is not as porous as aluminum so that it does not need to be impregnated to seal the body, zinc is higher in weight and cost than aluminum and therefore is not a preferred material."
...
http://videos.howstuffworks.com/science-channel/37443-how-its-made-carburetors-video.htm
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine-Sol

[vasama]

After I boiled them for another 10 minutes, all that stuff was gone.
It was like dried white glue. You could almost peel it off from some places. It didn't look to be uniformly spread, but rather in some areas, mostly at the top and on the outside of the carbs. I sprayed them with carb cleaner (ran out of WD40 last night). The passages seem to be open - I could see spray coming out of the small holes in side while I was shooting carb cleaner through the jets. The jets are new (they have less than 80 miles on them).

I feel encouraged that I'm going the right direction to fix the issue because I found my gas tank to be filthy as hell! The second gallon of vinegar was very close in color to the first one (see pic). The third one was considerably better, and the three flushes I did with gas ended with pretty clear fuel coming out of the tank.

Tonight I assemble. I got an inline fuel filter and a new vacuum cap. That was another thing: When I was first troubleshooting, I checked for vacuum leaks at the boots and at the petcock, and found nothing, but I didn't check on that capped vacuum port. It turned out that the rubber cap was old and a bit cracked.

If this doesn't fix the hanging idle problem, the next step would be to check my valve clearances, which I also suspect.

I'm hoping that I didn't ruin the bodies with the pinesol, and that that gunk ends up being just a layer of dirt. I followed that advice believing that it had been done before... Oh, well, maybe I get lucky on this one...

[adidasguy]

After fat cat's posting, can we all say "Time to search ebay for a set of carbs"?

Make offer for this set:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-SUZUKI-GS500-E-GS500E-GS-500-E-500E-CARBS-CARBURETORS-/150719791911?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2317998327

[Kijona]

After fat cat's posting, can we all say "Time to search ebay for a set of carbs"?

Make offer for this set:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-SUZUKI-GS500-E-GS500E-GS-500-E-500E-CARBS-CARBURETORS-/150719791911?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2317998327

Not so fast, Adidas. I think it's at least worth trying to see if they still function properly. He's got nothing left to lose, right?

I'm fairly convinced the substance produced was a reaction to the Pinesol and hot water - there's tar and other stuff in Pinesol. No reason to spend money if he doesn't have to.

If it doesn't work, well, at least he'll have tried.

[Kijona]

After I boiled them for another 10 minutes, all that stuff was gone.
It was like dried white glue. You could almost peel it off from some places. It didn't look to be uniformly spread, but rather in some areas, mostly at the top and on the outside of the carbs. I sprayed them with carb cleaner (ran out of WD40 last night). The passages seem to be open - I could see spray coming out of the small holes in side while I was shooting carb cleaner through the jets. The jets are new (they have less than 80 miles on them).

I feel encouraged that I'm going the right direction to fix the issue because I found my gas tank to be filthy as hell! The second gallon of vinegar was very close in color to the first one (see pic). The third one was considerably better, and the three flushes I did with gas ended with pretty clear fuel coming out of the tank.

Tonight I assemble. I got an inline fuel filter and a new vacuum cap. That was another thing: When I was first troubleshooting, I checked for vacuum leaks at the boots and at the petcock, and found nothing, but I didn't check on that capped vacuum port. It turned out that the rubber cap was old and a bit cracked.

If this doesn't fix the hanging idle problem, the next step would be to check my valve clearances, which I also suspect.

I'm hoping that I didn't ruin the bodies with the pinesol, and that that gunk ends up being just a layer of dirt. I followed that advice believing that it had been done before... Oh, well, maybe I get lucky on this one...

[image deleted]

As I said above, I'm fairly certain the gunk was just a reaction to pinesol and boiling water. Pinesol is full of tar and oil (maybe even pine sap...). I'm sure it'll be fine - GS500 carbs, especially the older ones, have value in mind so I doubt they put anything fancy like impregnated metals for the carb. But hey, what do I know?

Also, it's really good that you were able to clean that funk out of your tank. I'm glad to see you coming along so quickly! I'm sure once you put the bike back together it's going to purr like a kitten and run like a screaming demon!

[adidasguy]

Not so fast, Adidas. I think it's at least worth trying to see if they still function properly. He's got nothing left to lose, right?

That was the parts whore in me sneaking out. You can never have too many GS500 parts

[bigfatcat]

After I boiled them for another 10 minutes, all that stuff was gone.
It was like dried white glue. You could almost peel it off from some places. It didn't look to be uniformly spread, but rather in some areas, mostly at the top and on the outside of the carbs. I sprayed them with carb cleaner (ran out of WD40 last night). The passages seem to be open - I could see spray coming out of the small holes in side while I was shooting carb cleaner through the jets. The jets are new (they have less than 80 miles on them).

I feel encouraged that I'm going the right direction to fix the issue because I found my gas tank to be filthy as hell! The second gallon of vinegar was very close in color to the first one (see pic). The third one was considerably better, and the three flushes I did with gas ended with pretty clear fuel coming out of the tank.

Tonight I assemble. I got an inline fuel filter and a new vacuum cap. That was another thing: When I was first troubleshooting, I checked for vacuum leaks at the boots and at the petcock, and found nothing, but I didn't check on that capped vacuum port. It turned out that the rubber cap was old and a bit cracked.

If this doesn't fix the hanging idle problem, the next step would be to check my valve clearances, which I also suspect.

I'm hoping that I didn't ruin the bodies with the pinesol, and that that gunk ends up being just a layer of dirt. I followed that advice believing that it had been done before... Oh, well, maybe I get lucky on this one...

That gooey film may be something else - for instance the residue left behind by wd40 (fish oil) acted upon by the pinesol in some weird way, but who knows.

I'd just go ahead and use the carbs see what happens before spending $ on more carbs.

I posted that info for other people who are novice mechanics - I only use carb cleaner and gasoline - even carb cleaner can damage carb bodies if immersed too long, so I've been told. Don't intend to test that 'fact'.

[Phil B]

Fish oil?
Hey, i KNEW that looked like a good curry sauce!

[bigfatcat]

Fish oil?
Hey, i KNEW that looked like a good curry sauce!

My bad : wd40 does NOT contain fish oil - urban myth apparently - according to wd40 manufacturer.

Rustoleum, oth ...

[Kijona]

Vasama where are ya bud? I'm really anxious to hear of your imminent success! 

[vasama]

January 11th

Sorry I hadn't updated before.

This is what's happened: I continued with the vinegar treatment of the tank, but I was getting flash rusting every time. I went through 5 gallons of vinegar, but each time I put gas back on it, after a couple of hours I could see more rust starting to form at the bottom.
I was really discouraged. A guy from a local radiator shop told me to use muriatic acid instead of vinegar, and I was just about ready to try that one out when I came to the realization that my problem was in my process. I wasn't rinsing out the vinegar residue before adding gas!
I had a bit of a time issue as well - I have two jobs - and I just didn't have enough time on an evening to go through the vinegar, the rinsing, the drying, and then the gas.
I contacted a local bike shop and they gave me the number of the place they send their tanks that need to be de-rusted. I called them and their price is 65 bucks (100 if I want it coated). This will be my solution. In hindsight, this is what I should have done to begin with, but then, we're the type of people that want to do this stuff on our own, right?
So, that's the update: the tank goes today to that shop, I'll get it back on Friday, so the forecast is of the bike being put back together this Saturday.

[Kijona]

January 11th

Sorry I hadn't updated before.

This is what's happened: I continued with the vinegar treatment of the tank, but I was getting flash rusting every time. I went through 5 gallons of vinegar, but each time I put gas back on it, after a couple of hours I could see more rust starting to form at the bottom.
I was really discouraged. A guy from a local radiator shop told me to use muriatic acid instead of vinegar, and I was just about ready to try that one out when I came to the realization that my problem was in my process. I wasn't rinsing out the vinegar residue before adding gas!
I had a bit of a time issue as well - I have two jobs - and I just didn't have enough time on an evening to go through the vinegar, the rinsing, the drying, and then the gas.
I contacted a local bike shop and they gave me the number of the place they send their tanks that need to be de-rusted. I called them and their price is 65 bucks (100 if I want a coat). This will be my solution. In hindsight, this is what I should have done to begin with, but then, we're the type of people that want to do this stuff on our own, right?
So, that's the update: the tank goes today to that shop, I'll get it back on Friday, so the forecast is of the bike being put back together this Saturday.

Aw man...that really sucks. Yeah like I said in my other post, it's important that after the initial de-rusting, you don't let vinegar sit in the tank. It's kind of a double-edged sword in a way because the same properties that makes vinegar great for removing rust and making metal all shiny and new...also will make it rust if it's left on metal that has no rust!

At any rate, at least you can say you tried it yourself. You're only out a few bucks for the vinegar and BB's (probably could take the BB's back to Wally World  ).

Please let us know how it goes!

[vasama]

Hello, everybody!

Well, as some of you know, what started as a carb cleanup ended up being a complete paint job that has deviated into a head gasket change job, and now also a valve clearance job!

The bike is sitting in my garage completely torn off. The frame's been powder coated and is in one end of the garage, alone. I already attached the swingarm to it, but have not tightened it yet. I also got into my head that I wanted to powder coat the shock spring, and I'm doing that tonight.

Last night it was the engine's turn. I was supposed to put it together (clean the surfaces and install the new head gasket). Here's my first question: The reason I replaced the gasket is because I had a leak from my initial rebuild of this bike. I intended to add gasket sealant to it in order to get a better seal. I decided against it at the last minute, though, because the Clymer manual says not to use sealant. It says that these gaskets are supposed to expand when in contact with oil, so I left it alone. The question: Was I right to not use sealant? Do you think I should've?

Now, moving on, I did install the cylinder and its cover. I set the timing, and installed the camshaft. Next thing on my list was to check valve clearances, and I was a little bit surprised to find that both my intake valves are tight. Or so I think. The smallest feeler gauge I have is .0015 inch (.0381). I'll try to get a metric gauge, or at least a .001 inch one. Still, I got the feeling that half a thousandth won't be enough for the gauge to slide in there.

This I'm actually taking as good news! Remember that what brought me here was the hanging idle problem. Please, someone confirm or correct me in that tight intake valves would contribute to the hanging idle problem. I'll be happy if that is the case, because this would solve my carburation riddle.

Here's my last question of the day: Regarding valve shim tappets, is it really necessary to go with OEM here, or is there an alternative that would be a bit cheaper? (BTW, I would add my name to the "Kerry West Coast Valve Kit", but I believe I'm too new in the forum to be "vetted" to get them, not to mention that I would have to get in line, so it seems my best option is to simply buy what I need)

As always, thanks for any and all the input.