Painless clutch repair? Has become very strange?!?!?

[jdoorn14]

(Cranking engine by hand, sometimes it would really snap forward or be hard to turn in one spot)

Cam chain and/or tensioner going bad? Not sure if that would cause the symptoms you describe, though.

[bombsquad83]

Sounds like the battery is just a little weak.

[adidasguy]

Battery is fine. New LiFe. Charger idiot light shows all is OK. Voltage OK.
Remember: problem only when engine is cold.
Plan to do:
* valve adjustment (needed)
* Carb sync (haven't done it yet)
* Measure current draw when bike is off in case there is a slight short to the frame from the battery up to the ignition switch.

Other possibility could be bad contacts on starter relay. I can change that out as well. Then, only when cold would tend to rule that out.

I did find the timing rotor seal was fuggled somehow when I had the right side opened up. So I replaced that. Clutch all cleaned and adjusted. He rides really great and has plenty of power. Just this cold issue. Disconnected the USB outlet just in case - though the meter shows it drawing zero current.

I am tending towards a short in the wiring now. I remember a tiny spark when I connected the ground to the battery and the bike was off. Could have been static charge. Still worth measuring current draw with bike off. He has 2006 wiring so when the tank is off for the valves and carbs, I can check wiring, cam chain tensioner and other things. As general maintenance I am fine with going over everything. It was a donor engine from a bike with a PO that didn't do maintenance. We shall see and Il will update.

[bombsquad83]

Battery is fine. New LiFe. Charger idiot light shows all is OK. Voltage OK.
Remember: problem only when engine is cold.
Plan to do:
* valve adjustment (needed)
* Carb sync (haven't done it yet)
* Measure current draw when bike is off in case there is a slight short to the frame from the battery up to the ignition switch.

When the bike is cold the battery hasn't been charging for a while.  I'm inclined to think there is something sucking current when the bike is off.

Symptoms don't really line up for the first 2 things listed, but never hurts to check.

[adidasguy]

Only recent addition was the USB port. It was sired to be always on in case I wanted to charge something while bike is off. I disconnected that this morning just in case it was a problem. Though the meter showed it was pulling essentially zero current.

Quite possible some wire recently developed a minor short going from battery to ignition switch. Only way current could be drawn with bike off since all power goes there first.

One other possiblily is the starter relay. dirty contacts might be allowing some current to bridge the contacts. Not enough to harm the starter motor, but enough to drain the battery down a little after a day. I will replace the starter relay.

I can swap out the MosFet regulator, too. Just in case it went defective.

However, I will d one thing at a time so I know what causes the problem.

First will be measuring any current draw with bike off.

I will update my findings tomorrow.

PS: Valves and carb sync is just maintenance I need to do. When I do valves, I can check for a really tight valve and problems with cam chain tensioner. Wiring also will be checked for possible places where insulation is getting melted. I have not had the tank off since I built Phenix. Something could have come loose.

[adidasguy]

Phenix: Starter clutch out. That may have been much of the problem all along. Stopped home to test on way to gym. Started a couple times. Now starter motor spins. Took off timing cover to see if motor turning. Maybe a little once in a while.
So after gym, drain oil. Take off left side and fix it.

[Dizzledan]

Haha it's an epidemic! I know two other people (plus me) I have witnessed have this problem. I think some loc-tite red is in good order when those bolts go back in. Also (as if I need to tell you) DON'T DROP THE FLYWHEEL!!!

[adidasguy]

OK. Left side opened up.
Just for sheets and giggles, I pressed the starter button. Expecting to see the starter gear turn and the rotor stay put - well....

The magneto and the starter gear turned!

WTF?

Somehow, and correct me if I am wrong, I thought the magneto was supposed to be fastened to the shaft. Not something I can spin with my hand and not have the motor turn.

Magneto bolt coming loose? Does that ever happen? 

That could explain:
1. Suddenly coming on as a problem
2. Poor charging - if the magneto is not rotating
3. NOT happening when engine is hot (shaft expands and locks magneto in place, cold the shaft is smaller and magneto spins)

Am I as insane and crazy as some think or is this a really weird thing to have happen? 

How often does this happen? I can turn  the bolt holding the magneto with my fingers. I guess it is not torqued to the correct amount? 

[adidasguy]

Tightened down.
Seems OK now.

Weird!

Anyone ever heard of that coming loose? Should we start a thread about your weirdest bike failure/repair? (Hint:Might help people with problems - think outside the book).

After a ride, went back out 2 hours later. No oil drips. All is OK though I feel I may have over tightened come case bolts. Torque wrench was being fussy. I won't worry about it unless (a) there is a leak or (b) I have to open up the sides again.

So glad Phenix is healthy again.

if it wasn't for this board, I'd never open up the engine and try to fix things. Years ago I don't remember doing any bike maintenance other than oil the chain and check tire pressure. Really. I was that bad.

Opening up the engine is a lot easier than building a digital reproduction of a Wurlitzer pipe organ with over 500 Z80 microprocessors and a bunch of 68705's.

Thanks everyone - you've made bike maintenance fun.

In the end:
1. Cleaning electrical connections may have helped.
2. Cleaning the clutch plates certainly helped one issue
3. Tightening the bolt that holds inthe magneto rotor and starter clutch thingy was the icing on the cake.

[Paulcet]

I wonder if sticky clutch plates would be a root cause... I don't know exactly how it all goes together, so I may be just talking out of my ass here.

[bombsquad83]

Can you show us on a parts fiche which bolt was loose so we can check for it if ever opening the left side of the engine?

I'm guessing it's #4 here: http://www.bikebandit.com/2009-suzuki-gs500f-carburetor/o/m19099sch650007#sch650038

[jestercinti]

if it wasn't for this board, I'd never open up the engine and try to fix things. Years ago I don't remember doing any bike maintenance other than oil the chain and check tire pressure. Really. I was that bad.

So true.  Prior to my bike now, I never had a bike more than 7,000 miles.  I'd get tired of it, and then sell.  Most things didn't go wrong during that time.  And yes, I'd grease the chain, change the oil, and that was about it.

My old GS450L was my first experience with getting my hands really dirty.  I remember the clutch worm gear thing (under front sprocket cover) died, and I was down for a month cause I found 12 other things wrong when taking it apart.  Learned a ton, and also applied this to the GS500 since the engines are VERY similar.

My motto is If it ain't broke, futz with it until it is, then learn how to fix it.  As screwed up as that is, that's how I learn.

Glad things worked out for you.

[adidasguy]

Can you show us on a parts fiche which bolt was loose so we can check for it if ever opening the left side of the engine?

I'm guessing it's #4 here: http://www.bikebandit.com/2009-suzuki-gs500f-carburetor/o/m19099sch650007#sch650038

Yep = #4

The starter gear bolts to the magneto thingy. When the starter motor was blipped, the whole thing turned but not the engine. I could turn it by hand and the engine didn't move. Then I found I could take the bolt off with my fingers. Somehow my gut instincts told be that was not right.

I bet that is the last thing anyone would expect to come loose.

To keep things from moving to torque it down, I stuck a small allen wrench in the teeth of the starter gear and the idler. Then torqued that sucker to 120nm. Put blue thread lock on that bolt, too (as Haynes says to do).

Friday Morning Update: Still no oil on the floor so that's good. Means everything is sealed up tight. Started just fine. Stared just like he used to start. I still fear a few case bolts were over torqued (clicky torque wrench was fussy) but won't worry about it unless there is an oil leak or I have to take the covers off again. Next time I'll just go "hand tight" like I normally do and skip the torque wrench for these case bolts.

Phenix now has 180 miles since last fill up so must be close to reserve. That means empty tank so Saturday he will get valve adjustment and carb sync (empty tanks are easier to take off).

Now that I've been inside his engine, it really is easy to to do. Cleaning clutch plates was no doubt a good thing to do. Checking for any play in the counter balance bearing - its right there so I did (that was Junior's major engine failure). Now I think all new bikes and engines will get opened up and all these things checked. heck - it could be done in a couple hours and then I'd know the condition of the engine. Do oil change at the same time.

[adidasguy]

As a final note, Phenix is running fine.

The stickiness of the clutch is gone. I can now start in gear with clutch in and no lurching forward.

So, in all this, even though the clutch was not the real problem, cleaning the clutch plates was a good thing.
Given the areas between the thingies on the plates, crap can collect there. So cleaning them out makes the clutch operate so much better. Probably an occasional cleaning of the clutch plates will extend the life of the clutch. If nothing more, clutch operation is like brand new again.

Running with Amsoil may be helping. First bike I've tried it in.

[gsatterw]

So just to be clear, it was tightening that bolt down that fixed the lurch? Also, do I need to drain my oil to get at that bolt?

Graham

[adidasguy]

Getting rid of the lurch had to be from cleaning off the clutch plates. Lots of crud accumulates in the little spaces between  the clutch thingies on the plates. With the clutch lever in, the rear wheel was hard to get started moving. Once  moving it was OK until the clutch went back in. Then  the plates stuck together again.

Probably they were rather cruddy from a PO that no doubt did not change oil as often as he should have.

Now I have Amsoil in Phenix. I can not say what change that has made. The OEM oil in Phenix was only 2 months old. It is possible that the two oil changes helped clean the crud from the plates (in addition to manually cleaning them in kerosene and soaking in clean Amsoil). Talking to the mechanic, he said clutch plates should be cleaned once in a while. They last longer and operate better if you do.

Tightening the magneto bolt on the left took care of the problem of the starter slipping and poor charging due to the magneto not rotating as fast as it should.

You have to drain the oil to take off either side cover.

Lurching: sticky clutch, right side
Starter dragging or slipping: left side

[gsatterw]

I thought the clutch stuff was left side and the magneto charging stuff was on the left? I'm an idiot?

[Dizzledan]

No you're not an idiot, just confused. The starter clutch acts more like a one-way bearing. It's attached to the magneto under the left cover.

The transmission clutch is on the right side under the cover.