Really Rough Shifting + Possible electrical issues?

[lynx124]

Ok before I say anything and get destroyed by everyone calling me a noob/squid and stuff lemme clear up a few things...

I started riding with an MSF course, got my license, practiced on a friend's old bike for a few months, then bought my first bike. The bike was a 2007 GS500F with 6K miles on it. I bought it from a trusted friend who is an extreme wrench monkey and a mechanical engineer by trade. When I first got the bike it was FLAWLESS. The only custom work that was done to the engine that isn't cosmetic or electrical was the addition of a Jardine exhaust system. I am also new to this forum so please excuse me if i posted this in the wrong section. I only put about 600 miles on the bike, during which the chain was oiled twice, and the oil changed once. I use fully synthetic SAE 10W-40 motorcycle oil without any friction modifiers. The bike is wiped down after every ride, and stored in my garage, under a cover...clearly i take pride in this bike...(PS I NEVER ride this bike hard)

Now onto the issue...
About a week ago I took my bike on a short errand. It was approx. 5 mi to my destination and 5mi. back. On my way back, about 1 mi away from my house, I was making a sharp turn in second gear at about 25mph, as I was applying more throttle to pull me out of the turn I began to lose power. Eventually I lost all power, and I coasted to the side of the road and the engine died on me. (The red oil light came on that indicated that the engine was off) I tried to restart the engine by pulling in the clutch and pressing the ignition button. Nothing in the engine turned over, but I know it was attempting to start because my headlight would dim ever so slightly when I pressed the ignition. I then figured it was because I was still in second gear and for some reason she wasnt happy. I pulled the clutch all the way in and tried to down shift into neutral and found it EXTREMELY difficult to get anything to shift. Eventually, however, I got it into neutral. Next, I checked the oil because it was the next logical step. When I checked I saw that it was only about a 1/4 full. Mind you, the bike was not smoking, or producing strange scents while it was running. I didnt think much of it and figured I would get the bike home and put more oil there (again, home was 1 mi away). After about a minute or two of waiting, the bike eventually started without any indications of problems (no weird scents or sounds), and oddly enough, there was no red oil light indicating low oil. I took the bike home and put it in my garage. I didnt ride it for about a week due to the fact that it was storming all week. The following weekend i figured id take her out to the nearest autozone for oil. (About 2 mi away) The bike started up normally, and there was no indication on my garage floor of any oil leaks. I took her out and literally only rode 1/4mi when the same thing happened, in second gear again. This time the bike wouldnt restart at all or shift into neutral no matter ho hard i pulled in the clutch and pressed on the shifter. I went to check the oil again, this time burning my fingers on the cap because it was exceptionally hot. When I removed the dipstick i saw that it was BONE DRY. This baffled me, but I called up a friend who went and picked up the oil for me as I waited by the bike on the street. (BTW, there was never an oil indication light that came on throughout this whole thing) I filled the oil and turned around to go home, the bike started normally but then as i was literally a few feet from my driver the whole situation happened AGAIN!!!! I pushed the bike the rest of the way and checked the oil once more and saw it was full. Oh and shifting it into neutral was almost impossible again.

Im pretty sure my clutch is properly adjusted and the transmission is in good shape. If anyone has a video of how to properly adjust the clutch, id be more than happy to watch it to double check my methods.

I called a few shops and theyre all telling me the want $2500 to replace my transmission which is ridiculous and it's clear theyre trying to cheat me. Is there anyone out there that can give me any leads on how to troubleshoot this issue. I am not going to ride the bike anymore until i fix this as not to cause any engine damage.

I'm stuck and I have no idea what to do!

Thanks in advance for reading all of this!

[weedahoe]

At this point, if you have not already damaged the engine, I would be surprised.

If you are not leaking oil externally, then you are using it internaly. Simple as that

[adidasguy]

Might I suggest a little better paragraphing of your long post? That would make it easier to read.
So long, maybe a bullet point or two to break it up.

[Janx101]

maybe i'll get flamed ... cos im usually not a fixer of things like this myself... i take mine to a mechanic ... i swear less that way 

and i got through the mega-paragraph... but i post like that a bit... familiarity and all that .. 

couple initial points .. and i'm not judging your methods... just making points for clarity ...

when you checked the oil ... bike on sidestand? .. bike on centrestand? .. bike just 'held level, L/R' while sitting on its wheels?
checking on sidestand vs holding level, L/R can give quite a difference in oil level readings ..

and i'm also thinking IF oil was checked on sidestand .. then MAYBE its overfull and causing a 'increasing hydrolock' situ .. more and more oil 'building up' in the upper parts of engine and forcing stoppage .. with potential damage .. but best wait for the engine gurus on that one 

far as i know ' suddenly dying and coasting' ..possibilities- bad electrical connections, out of fuel/low fuel, extreme heat causing engine to 'seize' (and when temp drops it can loosen again .. though without sounds and smells its odd) .. probably other stuff... but thats what my simple thinking aims at right now..

dont think there is a low oil pressure 'safety switch/cut-out' .. thats why the light is there...

you can re-start the motor when cold... but it heats up and binds?... i dont know that if its the cylinders sticking , that it would make the clutch lock up too? ... OR if the transmission was that bad/worn clutch .. that it would cause the engine to die.. not be able to stop/disengage the clutch , sure! .. but locking the 'whole thing' ? ..

any '2 stroke smoke' ?.. indicating oil being burnt up at a ferocious rate or escaping past the rings?

anyway .. enough of the horror story .. i dont know enough of the mechanical reasoning... i am just trying to reason along with you to go with the 'anything you missed/didnt think' help idea..

it could be as simple as this.... you were low on fuel ,so the bike died on a turn OR you have a pinched fuel/vaccum line .. the battery is also just on its last legs (you can have a nice bright headlight and still not enough power to start!!) , so it wouldnt start .. the clutch adjustment is out/you have a dying clutch , so it wouldn't pop out of gear or through gears .. which is just a crappy combination/coincidence ..

the oil being very low .. which you have since rectified ... may be just simultaneous! .. the rest of the above are still occurring and need tending to .. which is tedious .. but not 'dead bike dramatic' ...

OR .. its terminal .. the powerplant/drivetrain have packed it in and react accordingly after a certain amount of heat... ??

now as for 2.5K for a transmission?... tell em they're dreamin!! .. sure if you WANT a fully recondition/virtually new one! ... but if it is the engine and or the gearbox... you WILL BE ABLE to replace BOTH by buying good/reasonable condition secondhand online AND pay shipping for less than that!! .. mutter mumble mechanic/thieves/highwaymen!! mutter mumble...

i'm lucky with the 2 different mechanics that i do use... depending on whats the issue... both of them i know have a good rep for fair charges/good work .. and i trust that their work IS good... both of them used to semi-pro race bikes years ago and have so much background knowledge about 'all those things that matter' on a bike...

so .. the friend that brought the oil out to you... is that the same friend that sold you the bike?... not suggesting its the sellers issue... but have you asked him 'what might be the issue?' .. surely if he that much a 'good all around guy and wrench monkey'  and understands you are seeking info but not laying blame .. as the former owner of the bike he could provide some invaluable tips/insights ..

buying from a friend can have 'issues' .. but personally ive never hung the drama back on them ... i knew i was buying mechanical stuff ... and mechanical stuff does 'weird crap' .. so when i ask them about issues later .. its always .. 'eh mate , did it ever do this to you?.. yeah?.. how do i fix it/how did you fix it.. so it can be fixed again!.. 

[sledge]

The internals have obviously been starved of oil and run dry and overheated.... 

At this stage you can only speculate on the exact nature of the damage this will have caused but its sure to involve bearings/journals and possibly partially seized pistons.

You can start pulling covers off and trying to spanner the crank round but its not going to tell you anything new. One thing is for certain though........... its going need major surgery to fully diagnose and rectify.

Without wishing to sound condescending the oil light indicates low oil pressure, not low oil level, its a common mistake the newbies make, particularly when they have owned and ridden mainly 2 strokes and mopeds in the past.

Full professional rebuilds to manufacturers specs using OEM parts don't work out cheap but 2.5k does seem excessive.......maybe they just don't want the job and are quoting silly prices to scare you off.

Unless you are confident and good with the spanners the best option for you would be to replace the engine.

[Paulcet]

You said "1/4 full". Do you mean it had less than a liter in it? Or do you mean the oil on the dipstick reached 1/4 up on the hash mark?

How much did you have to put in it to bring up to full?

While the engine my indeed be dead, this is not the typical low oil = dead engine scenario, IMO.

[gsJack]

+1

Read post thru slowly and didn't see any evidence of oil problem  and agree with Paulcet's questions.  Exactly how was oil checked and how much oil was put in bike when friend brought oil to you on the road?  Was oil completely off dip stick with the bike held vertical while checking it at any time?

To me it sounds more like it ran out of gas.  If tank not too low then gas not getting to engine.

Bike can be extremely difficult to get into gear or to change gear when standing still with engine not running.  That doesn't indicate anything wrong with the tranny, bikes are just that way due to tranny design.

As I understood it you never saw the engine red light on when the engine was running.

[gsatterw]

Everything gsJack said, I second.

Pinched/gunked up fuel line?

Definitely make sure there isn't too much oil in it, that is just as bad. Proper technique is to run engine for 5 minutes, turn off, wait a few minutes, and on center stand, unscrew, wipe off and just place on top. If the oil was 1/4 of the way up the hashed area, then you probably aren't dealing with low oil. When I shut my bike off, often (always maybe?) the oil light will come on.

Also, in my experience, this forum is very friendly and will not flame you for being a newb, just for being a jackass. Welcome.

Graham 

[jdoorn14]

One other item that bothers me... You checked the oil and found it to be 1/4 up the dipstick with the engine warm...and still rode it to Autozone to get oil? Without adding any oil? IMHO, this is asking for problems. 1/4 up the dipstick with engine cold is even more disturbing...

Out of curiosity, have you taken an MSF Basic Rider Course (BRC)? If not, you should, regardless how much riding experience you have. One thing you'll learn is the major items to check in a pre-ride inspection. (T-CLOCS)

One of the first things I did upon buying my bike was to make sure I always had extra oil at home, because I know that carbureted engines have a tendency to burn oil. (Parents had a 1976 Chevy Caprice until roughly 1994...and I started reading about it here before buying my GS.)

[bombsquad83]

One other item that bothers me... You checked the oil and found it to be 1/4 up the dipstick with the engine warm...and still rode it to Autozone to get oil? Without adding any oil? IMHO, this is asking for problems. 1/4 up the dipstick with engine cold is even more disturbing...

Out of curiosity, have you taken an MSF Basic Rider Course (BRC)? If not, you should, regardless how much riding experience you have. One thing you'll learn is the major items to check in a pre-ride inspection. (T-CLOCS)

One of the first things I did upon buying my bike was to make sure I always had extra oil at home, because I know that carbureted engines have a tendency to burn oil. (Parents had a 1976 Chevy Caprice until roughly 1994...and I started reading about it here before buying my GS.)

I don't think it's the fact that it's carbureated that causes the tendency to burn oil; it's that it's air-cooled.  Air-cooled engines are built with larger clearances on the rings (or so I've heard) to allow the oil to cool more effectively and reduce the chance of seizing due to overheating. 

Also, as long as the oil is in the hashed area of the dipstick when checked properly (warm, on the centerstand, NOT threaded in), then I wouldn't be afraid to ride it a short distance to get some more oil.

[lynx124]

At this point, if you have not already damaged the engine, I would be surprised.

If you are not leaking oil externally, then you are using it internaly. Simple as that

weedahoe, Im sure Im not leaking any externally, and if I was burning oil I would most likely see white exhaust smoke and different/abnormal scents coming out of there too. That's why I'm so baffled lol 

[lynx124]

Might I suggest a little better paragraphing of your long post? That would make it easier to read.
So long, maybe a bullet point or two to break it up.

Sorry about that, still new to technical forums 

[lynx124]

maybe i'll get flamed ... cos im usually not a fixer of things like this myself... i take mine to a mechanic ... i swear less that way 

and i got through the mega-paragraph... but i post like that a bit... familiarity and all that .. 

couple initial points .. and i'm not judging your methods... just making points for clarity ...

when you checked the oil ... bike on sidestand? .. bike on centrestand? .. bike just 'held level, L/R' while sitting on its wheels?
checking on sidestand vs holding level, L/R can give quite a difference in oil level readings ..

and i'm also thinking IF oil was checked on sidestand .. then MAYBE its overfull and causing a 'increasing hydrolock' situ .. more and more oil 'building up' in the upper parts of engine and forcing stoppage .. with potential damage .. but best wait for the engine gurus on that one 

far as i know ' suddenly dying and coasting' ..possibilities- bad electrical connections, out of fuel/low fuel, extreme heat causing engine to 'seize' (and when temp drops it can loosen again .. though without sounds and smells its odd) .. probably other stuff... but thats what my simple thinking aims at right now..

dont think there is a low oil pressure 'safety switch/cut-out' .. thats why the light is there...

you can re-start the motor when cold... but it heats up and binds?... i dont know that if its the cylinders sticking , that it would make the clutch lock up too? ... OR if the transmission was that bad/worn clutch .. that it would cause the engine to die.. not be able to stop/disengage the clutch , sure! .. but locking the 'whole thing' ? ..

any '2 stroke smoke' ?.. indicating oil being burnt up at a ferocious rate or escaping past the rings?

anyway .. enough of the horror story .. i dont know enough of the mechanical reasoning... i am just trying to reason along with you to go with the 'anything you missed/didnt think' help idea..

it could be as simple as this.... you were low on fuel ,so the bike died on a turn OR you have a pinched fuel/vaccum line .. the battery is also just on its last legs (you can have a nice bright headlight and still not enough power to start!!) , so it wouldnt start .. the clutch adjustment is out/you have a dying clutch , so it wouldn't pop out of gear or through gears .. which is just a crappy combination/coincidence ..

the oil being very low .. which you have since rectified ... may be just simultaneous! .. the rest of the above are still occurring and need tending to .. which is tedious .. but not 'dead bike dramatic' ...

OR .. its terminal .. the powerplant/drivetrain have packed it in and react accordingly after a certain amount of heat... ??

now as for 2.5K for a transmission?... tell em they're dreamin!! .. sure if you WANT a fully recondition/virtually new one! ... but if it is the engine and or the gearbox... you WILL BE ABLE to replace BOTH by buying good/reasonable condition secondhand online AND pay shipping for less than that!! .. mutter mumble mechanic/thieves/highwaymen!! mutter mumble...

i'm lucky with the 2 different mechanics that i do use... depending on whats the issue... both of them i know have a good rep for fair charges/good work .. and i trust that their work IS good... both of them used to semi-pro race bikes years ago and have so much background knowledge about 'all those things that matter' on a bike...

so .. the friend that brought the oil out to you... is that the same friend that sold you the bike?... not suggesting its the sellers issue... but have you asked him 'what might be the issue?' .. surely if he that much a 'good all around guy and wrench monkey'  and understands you are seeking info but not laying blame .. as the former owner of the bike he could provide some invaluable tips/insights ..

buying from a friend can have 'issues' .. but personally ive never hung the drama back on them ... i knew i was buying mechanical stuff ... and mechanical stuff does 'weird crap' .. so when i ask them about issues later .. its always .. 'eh mate , did it ever do this to you?.. yeah?.. how do i fix it/how did you fix it.. so it can be fixed again!.. 

Hey first off thanks for actually reading through the whole post rather than flaming me haha! 

Ok to answer your questions...

Call me a newbie all you want but the bike was on the sidestand when I measured the oil. Now I know that it should be on the center stand. Now here's a counter question. Does reading it on the side stand produce a false reading that is more than or less than the actual quantity of oil? Meaning when reading it on the side stand and seeing the mark on the 1/4 point on the dipstick mean there is more than 1/4 tank or less than 1/4 tank of oil? Im hoping it means there is more because that would mean the engine at least has some oil.

Also, I just checked right now with the bike on the center stand and the reading was 1/2 full, so that rules out the question of whether or not the engine is flooded out with oil.

There is no 2 stroke smoke and all of the electrical stuff is on point. Oh and I've got 3/4 of a tank of gas in it (Im not that much of a noob ) I will however try to inspect the fuel line and filter (if it even has one lol, I'm more of a car guy than a bike guy when it comes to repairs as I am still new to the biker world) and look for any blocks/gunk.

The friend that brought me the oil is not the same guy that sold me the bike. And I'm certain that the issue has nothing to do with the seller.

About the point of the engine being too hot, I'm pretty sure that has to do with it because the engine was so hot after 1/4 mi ride that I burnt my fingers badly on the oil dipstick cap. This leads me to believe there is a shortage on oil somewhere because low oil = low lubrication = friction = HEAT!

Once again thanks for the help!

[lynx124]

Without wishing to sound condescending the oil light indicates low oil pressure, not low oil level, its a common mistake the newbies make, particularly when they have owned and ridden mainly 2 strokes and mopeds in the past.

Thanks for being nice about it! I didn't know that. I will certainly keep that in mind too.

[lynx124]

You said "1/4 full". Do you mean it had less than a liter in it? Or do you mean the oil on the dipstick reached 1/4 up on the hash mark?

How much did you have to put in it to bring up to full?

While the engine my indeed be dead, this is not the typical low oil = dead engine scenario, IMO.

By "1/4 full" I meant the dipstick reached 1/4 up on the hash marks. In other words, the oil tank had 1/4 of the oil it should normally have.

[lynx124]

+1

Read post thru slowly and didn't see any evidence of oil problem  and agree with Paulcet's questions.  Exactly how was oil checked and how much oil was put in bike when friend brought oil to you on the road?  Was oil completely off dip stick with the bike held vertical while checking it at any time?

To me it sounds more like it ran out of gas.  If tank not too low then gas not getting to engine.

Bike can be extremely difficult to get into gear or to change gear when standing still with engine not running.  That doesn't indicate anything wrong with the tranny, bikes are just that way due to tranny design.

As I understood it you never saw the engine red light on when the engine was running.

Thanks for reading through the whole thing! I really appreciate it 

As for the whole checking the oil thing my first reply to user "Janx101" covers all of that.
I also know that I did not run out of gas as my mechanical expertise is not THAT lacking lol. ALTHOUGH, it may be an issue with the fuel getting to the engine, so I will look into that tonight.

As for the transmission being hard to shift I didnt know that it was a normal thing. My manual car shifts easily when the engine is off, so I figured the same is true with bikes, but I guess I'm wrong.

Since you know a thing or two about bike transmissions, do you think its just a coincidence that all 3 times the bike stopped it began to lose power in second gear at about 3.5K RPM? or is this indicative of a much larger issue?

Thanks a lot man!

[lynx124]

One other item that bothers me... You checked the oil and found it to be 1/4 up the dipstick with the engine warm...and still rode it to Autozone to get oil? Without adding any oil? IMHO, this is asking for problems. 1/4 up the dipstick with engine cold is even more disturbing...

Out of curiosity, have you taken an MSF Basic Rider Course (BRC)? If not, you should, regardless how much riding experience you have. One thing you'll learn is the major items to check in a pre-ride inspection. (T-CLOCS)

One of the first things I did upon buying my bike was to make sure I always had extra oil at home, because I know that carbureted engines have a tendency to burn oil. (Parents had a 1976 Chevy Caprice until roughly 1994...and I started reading about it here before buying my GS.)

Yes I did take the MSF course (First few lines of my opening post) And I am aware of the whole burning oil thing, but it shouldn't be burning all of its oil in a 1mi ride! right?

[lynx124]

One other item that bothers me... You checked the oil and found it to be 1/4 up the dipstick with the engine warm...and still rode it to Autozone to get oil? Without adding any oil? IMHO, this is asking for problems. 1/4 up the dipstick with engine cold is even more disturbing...

Out of curiosity, have you taken an MSF Basic Rider Course (BRC)? If not, you should, regardless how much riding experience you have. One thing you'll learn is the major items to check in a pre-ride inspection. (T-CLOCS)

One of the first things I did upon buying my bike was to make sure I always had extra oil at home, because I know that carbureted engines have a tendency to burn oil. (Parents had a 1976 Chevy Caprice until roughly 1994...and I started reading about it here before buying my GS.)

I don't think it's the fact that it's carbureated that causes the tendency to burn oil; it's that it's air-cooled.  Air-cooled engines are built with larger clearances on the rings (or so I've heard) to allow the oil to cool more effectively and reduce the chance of seizing due to overheating. 

Also, as long as the oil is in the hashed area of the dipstick when checked properly (warm, on the centerstand, NOT threaded in), then I wouldn't be afraid to ride it a short distance to get some more oil.

Thanks! Agreed!

[Janx101]

... Didn't mean to seem if I was saying you a noob ... But I have noticed over the years of engine problems in all kinds of vehicles .... There is a very wide spectrum of understanding things...  .. And sometimes it is simple stuff that gets overlooked ...  That's all  ..

As an example on this forum .... Look up fuel issues sometime ... You get ... Lines blocked/pinched/ass about problems, vacuum problems, carb problems, forgot to turn the  fuel tap on problems... And the famous "it has plenty of gas cos I can hear it sloshing about" problems ....

Or ... 'Starting problems/goes click' ... You get .... Bad rotor problems, wrecked starter motor problems, bad solenoid problems, battery connection problems ..... And the famous 'but my battery should be good because I used it a week ago but now it's dead so I replaced it and magically the bike starts' ... Problems ....

I know if I have an issue with an engine ( and yeah I'm not a expert or a mechanic, just a normal person ... Well kinda normal) .. Like most people I get annoyed/agitated ... And sometimes miss simple checks ... So I try to keep it to basics to start with and eliminate simple 'causes?' ... Before I jump into a expensive cause theory .... And I remind others to do likewise as a friendly gesture...

Simple stuff I fix/fill/rectify/adjust ..... Complex stuff I get paid help with or just point and say 'sort that out' ....



... And a question for the lads about the oil .... Aside from having the low oil level .... And later putting oil in ... If the oil filter was completely clogged ... Would that prevent oil circulation? ... Or does the bike have a bypass line/gallery? ... Oil not circulating well would also would build up heat quick? and with a extra hot engine the oil that was moving a little would get burnt off quicker yeah?? ...

Genuine question above... I don't know on the bike ... But I know my truck (proper truck not a pickup) the filters mounts have a bypass on them if they get completely clogged .... I don't let them get that way ... But it's there.. 

[gsatterw]

The fact that it is cutting off in 2nd is most surely a coincidence.

Go a head and take your battery to autozone or something and have them load test it to see if it is in decent shape. Certainly check the fuel lines to make sure they are not kinked, and you may want to consider replacing the lines to be completely rule out the issue of clogged lines (this is pretty cheap, just takes time if you are new to it, i can swap out all fuel lines on my bike in 5 min start to finish and be back on the road).

Measuring the oil on the side stand would make the reading lower than in should be. If you think about it, putting it on the side stand makes the left side lower, so more oil will go to that side, and since the dipstick is on the left side, the reading will be lower. It sounds like your oil is not too high or too low (both are very bad and the main cause of gs500 engine failure), so you should be OK on the oil front.

This very well may be an electrical issue or a fuel delivery issue. If the engine runs smoothly at idle/with a bit of a rev and doesn't have any messed up sounds, the engine is probably fine.

Graham