Breaker point conversion (eliminating ignition module)

[eco.usa]

I am replacing the Kokusan ignition module (no longer available and not worth $450) on my 2002 GS 500 with a breaker point ignition system.  It is almost complete.  But I can't find what full advance timing should be?  Also wondering if the Kokusan did anything else other than control advance and retard timing?  Thanks for the help,  ECO.USA

[gsJack]

http://gstwins.com/gsboard/index.php?topic=64362.msg766352#msg766352

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[Big Rich]

Eco, why not just find a used one off of eBay? They are definitely around for less than $450.

Just curious, carry on.

[gsJack]

+1  Rich

[eco.usa]

I have already tried the EBAY route for ignition parts.  Got parts just as bad as the ones I already had.  Thanks for the advance timing information. Now I have to figure out how to make the centrifugal advance unit go for more advance.

[The Buddha]

GS black boxes are nearly indestructible. I dont think you got 2 bad ones, something else is off.
BTW There is a damn transistor in the bloody box. You lose that - 99% of bad boxes have those go. I replaced it on a MZ 660 (yamaha motor) , Yamaha xs650, virago 535 (not really I slapped a virago 750/920 ignition box in the 535) - see a pattern here - yea, All yammies.
Anyway - I'd take a crack at repairing the box, or look else where for the issue.

What are the symptoms.

Cool.
Buddha.

[eco.usa]

Made some headway getting the centrifugal advance unit to get to 40 degrees BTDC by grinding the stops a little.  Also got the condensers (capacitors) mounted on a bracket attached to the coil bolt so that they can be connected to the breaker point wire. I plan to use the stock coils with non resistor spark plug caps. That is really all there is to it. Why have the extra complication?
I have no interest in running another Asian transistor box ignition. No way to get to any components to tell if they are good or not. At least, with breaker points, I can see the quality of all components within 5 minutes, and can replace all that might wear out for $30 at any NAPA store.

[eco.usa]

OOPS!  Missed your question about symptoms.  With the first system, it would idle fine for a few seconds, then fire backward stopping the engine (like it was firing randomly).  Replaced the pickups with EBAY item, wouldn't run past idle. Decided to try new components, found spark box unavailable except for more used which I already have.  Have checked compression (150), cam timing (spot on), carbs clean, balanced and rubbers to the head sealed with crankcase sealer to the head. Did I miss something??

[eco.usa]

Got closer to first start up with point ignition.  All hooked up and timed to left coil, should have the right coil ready by tomorrow. That should be it, then try to start for the first time, never before in history!!!!

[eco.usa]

EUREKA MOMENT:  First start up of breaker point ignition (eliminating no longer available ignition module) 2002 and earlier GS 500.  Put a little shot of fuel in each spark plug hole and she fired up on the second touch!!!  Sounded strong, idle way faster than the module ignition did. Probably have a "too much advance too soon situation." The centrifugal advance was originally for a cam drive 1/2 crank speed.  GS 500 drives on the crank shaft 100% crank speed!  Think I need to lighten the weights about 50%.  Very happy to hear it run again!  It's been over a month in development.http://gstwins.com/gsboard/Smileys/New_Smile/woohoo.gif

[gsJack]

I did the same with a 5 liter 75 Mustang II I bought new and the module went out soon after it was off warranty.  Went to the junk yard and pulled the distributer out of a Ford that was wrecked and it ran good for a few more years.  Total cost for the distributer was $10 and it had new points and condenser in it.

[eco.usa]

EXACTLY JACK!!
The question is: "do I pay $476 for an ignition module that is "no longer available at any price?" Or do I do what you did and get quicker starting, harder hitting (amperage wise) ignition that, if it ever stops working, can be made to work again, in a matter of minutes.  Then spend the other $400+ saved on wild debauchery!!

[sledge]

I can understand you doing the work for kicks and the sense of achievement but to say its the best and the only option would be something else. Ok.... Used GS5 bits here are dirt cheap, I would have bought this myself and mailed it over to you if you had put the call out.

Doubt it would have come to more than about $15-20 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUZUKI-GS500-CDI-UNIT-2002/161523357649?_trksid=p2141725.c100204.m3164&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140407115239%26meid%3D8bafec5206424937809328c5a88bc6bd%26pid%3D100204%26prg%3D20140407115239%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D400175276560

[yamahonkawazuki]

Had point ignition on a few old moto engines as well as a. P19. A tad more for maintenance, but likedbit. It was pretty simple, and usually could be repaired with a file when needed

[The Buddha]

OOPS!  Missed your question about symptoms.  With the first system, it would idle fine for a few seconds, then fire backward stopping the engine (like it was firing randomly).  Replaced the pickups with EBAY item, wouldn't run past idle. Decided to try new components, found spark box unavailable except for more used which I already have.  Have checked compression (150), cam timing (spot on), carbs clean, balanced and rubbers to the head sealed with crankcase sealer to the head. Did I miss something??

Runs fine a few seconds and back fire and stall could be trigger coils. Could also be a bad ground, or a plethora of bad connections. Did it start right back up ? Or did it have to cool down before it would restart ?

Not running past idle with the second pickup - OK did you have it idle for 10-20 mins - like fully up to temp and it didn't make a difference, ecxept when you tried to rev it ? If so - This doesn't sound like its pickup, but it sounds like carb or fuel flow. If you didn't run it to fully hot, then You probably should.

You may well have a bad ignitor box, but there is $5 worth of parts in that ignitor, for those who like to check and fix stuff on the cheap - yea the ignitor is the ticket.

OK there is a IC chip in the thing, if that goes, I think you're screwed, but it controls the advance curve and only that. So if the bike idles, but when you rev it it runs worse and worse, that = advance curve is gone. It will rev up a bit, but get worse as it revs, by the time you get 2500 rpm, you wont get it burning right to really even rev more. It will burn into the exhaust, like the timing is far too retarded. I cant expalin. But you replace a 42 degree advance with a 10 degree you'd easily see/feel/hear it.

Cool.
Buddha.

[eco.usa]

 BUDDHA,

I think you hit the nail on the head with the "advance part of the spark box failing" diagnosis. 

It did start back up after kicking backward and stopping.  I did get it up to full operating temp.  It's amazing how long that takes. By the time you get it up to temp, you could have walked there.

But as far as continuing with that type of system?  There is no performance advantage to the spark box, it is just simulating breaker point pulses and doing advance.  And you trust that it is doing the right job but there is no way to verify.  With real points I can verify.

[The Buddha]

You lost the advance curve microchip - OK easy, a Blackbox off ebay will work. The advance curve chip as far as I have been opning these - back to 2003 I have never seen one die. In fact On the crackhead designed yamaha ignitors, I lose a switching transistor but never a micro. Its a one in a billion even IMHO.

I crack open receivers and CD players and amps in the last 5 years and, these will make the innards of the ignitor box look like a baby's toy - there is 1 case of it blown out I have ever seen.
Its a Toshiba TC9467 that dies because the biasing resistor fitted to it in the carver MXR 900/130/150/2000 is not adequate. I bought a new one and replaced it in 2011/2012, cost me $25. However I have since figured out these chips are in most things that have a big complex LED display. I yanked a few out of dead CD players.

OK you may have had a bad resistor or something in that ignitor box too, anyway a new ignitor will sort out the problem.

This is my take on the system in the GS.
The trigger coils - good for 30-40K miles, more if you run it on short rides. I think. I ran mine on 40 mile 1 way commutes and it died @ 35k with what is classic insulation thermal breakdown. If they cool down they work better, so my assumption is that if they keep cooling down often they work longer. So they work longer with short rides. Maybe wrong - I dunno.
The ignitor box - Nearly indestructible unless there is a bad component as it left the factory. Or if it was chewed by a dog. Dont laugh, I once worked on one that was chewed by a dog. The wiring harness was eaten through, and wires at the box were nearly shredded. It was almost like the dog went, I dont have opposable thumbs, so how can I inflict the most damage to this bike. Oh, yea these teeth ... OK let me eat this wiring thing ,oh, this black thing, looks like the most important, let me start there.

I dont think you're going to get better than either of these with points.

Cool.
Buddha.

[The Buddha]

And I would like both dead black boxes if you're not going that route. I need to crack one of these open. And yes 3 days in acetone would do it. I have never been inside one.
The time I was fixing my MZ660, I was working on a denon 3600. Oddly they were both $350 or so. I went, huh, there is 4000 components in the denon and its $350, and there is 6 in the MZ and its also 350. LOL.

BTW yamaha helps us out by only slathering like a litle dab of goop on it and tossing it out the door. That way you find bad components in 2 seconds.

Cool.
Buddha.

[bigfatcat]

Made some headway getting the centrifugal advance unit to get to 40 degrees BTDC by grinding the stops a little.  Also got the condensers (capacitors) mounted on a bracket attached to the coil bolt so that they can be connected to the breaker point wire. I plan to use the stock coils with non resistor spark plug caps. That is really all there is to it. Why have the extra complication?
I have no interest in running another Asian transistor box ignition. No way to get to any components to tell if they are good or not. At least, with breaker points, I can see the quality of all components within 5 minutes, and can replace all that might wear out for $30 at any NAPA store.

Agree wholeheartedly with you - ran across a couple bad ignition modules buying used online, needed one to carry as a spare on long trips. Much prefer actual breaker points, don't mind the maintenance. Black boxes are for people with clean hands that stay clean.

Did the swap on a Triumph Spitfire when the Lucas box died - ran fine for years afterwards, easy to maintain.

The stock gs ign module is sealed in rubber epoxy, no provision for cooling except two large embedded aluminum heat sinks which obviously get no airflow.  Probably significant heat buildup, internally, long trip, hot days ... ?

Somebody should reverse engineer these things - how hard would it be ?  Albeit surface mount devices (SMD), multi layered apparently. Looked online for aftermarket some years ago, didn't see much.

[The Buddha]

These dont get hot. They are encased in rubber cement and that is to keep the solder joints from vibrating themselves loose.

Cool.
Buddha.