A slew of problems but biggest one, bike won't start.

[honline]

Hey everyone, I apologize but this is gonna be a really long post...

My '99 GS500E won't start after a 4-day 1500km trip. I'm not super mechanically-inclined, so I had to get the bike towed home for the last 100 something kms. To shed some more light on the bike's history, below's a short list of things I've done and issues I've had from the past two years that might pertain to the current problems:

WORK ON THE BIKE
- 2 weeks ago: Installed USB charger plug with voltmetre display hooked up to the "sidelight" wires
- This spring (Feb/Mar): Fresh battery
- Last summer: Mechanic installed a new used carburetors from a different GS
- Last summer: New NGK spark plugs installed by mechanic

PROBLEM HISTORY
- Ever-present problem: Fuel starvation at higher speeds when I maintain rpm's above 6500 for a longer period of time (assuming it's petcock vacuum related as this forum suggests, but never tried to fix it. Just went around the problem. Thought it was fixed with last summer's new-used carbs)
- This spring: Noticed the clutch engages further out on the clutch lever (adjusted the clutch cable above the case, seemed to have helped)
- Last summer: Starting issues (engine turns, but doesn't start. Fresh battery this spring seemingly solved that)
- Last summer until now: Idles normal at times, then drops below 1000rpm, struggling to stay on. Sometimes stalls out as I'm engine braking towards a red light/stop when I'm in first gear. (Mechanic messed around with the air/fuel screw but didn't seem to do much)

SO.... now leading up to the 4-day trip, I noticed during the ride that the clutch was engaging further and further out slowly, especially with the bike fully loaded with camping gear and such.

1st INCIDENT:
Low idle/fluctuating idle issue has persisted since last summer after sitting on the driveway for 3 weeks. I kinda learnt to deal with it. The mechanic adjusted the fuel/air screw a bit but didn't fix it. The symptoms weren't apparent while he was present. I was a bit skeptical of the fluctuating idle (even with choke on, it was running at 3000-4000rpm). But I figured it'd last 4 days if I've been able to last all spring and beginning of summer with it.

2nd INCIDENT: On the highway, riding at 120km/h was fine, but as I sped up to pass a few cars and trucks at 135-140 km/h (maybe?), 6th gear at 7000rpm or so, that's when it chugged and the fuel starvation problem kicked in (I knew because of previous experience). I signal to shoulder and the gas is on and off, I pull in the clutch to downshift, and as usual, the bike stalls at 100km/h. I open the gas cap to vent, turn the bike on PRI, and try to restart after 5-10 minutes. Starter motor turns, but engine doesn't turn over and start. My newish voltmetre/USB charger showed 11.5 (nothing had been connected to the charger the entire morning) but after multiple attempts at starting it, it was drained down to 10.5 or so. Tried to bump start multiple times and wouldn't work and finally decided to disconnect the USB charger. Started right away and off we went.

3rd INCIDENT: On a gravel road on the farthest west point of Manitoulin Island Ontario, I was going about 10-15km/h and hit a really thick patch of ultra loose gravel while I was trying to fix something so I was riding one-handed. I lose control and dump the bike. I'm perfectly fine, bike takes some cosmetic damage (that I can only see). Speedo casing cracks with a fairly bike hole on the top left side, signal lights are a bit bent, but okay overall. Only significant damage at the time seemed to be a bent handlebar, but then I realized that the wheel was going straight but my triple tree/forks were crooked and facing the left side.

I stopped and stepped in front of the bike, squeezed the front tire between my legs, and held on the handlebars and pulled them back the other way. It seemed to have worked and straightened things out. For the record, I'm running oversized Heidenau K60 Scout tires where I'm running the tires without the fork brace. I continue on our ride and everything seems fine. I did notice that my clutch engagement point worsened a bit more after two days of riding. The low-idle issue seems to be more apparent too, where it basically shuts down almost every time we come to a stop so I have to pull the clutch in and keep revs up at 1500rpm to keep 'er running. Figured I should be able to make it home if I just kept the revs up.

4th INCIDENT:
Nearing Huntsville, there were a bunch of twisty roads that we started pushing our bikes a bit more. At this point, it still hadn't hit me that it could be the clutch. I had a slight inclination, but figured even if it was, it wouldn't give out on me before I got home. I thought the riding the clutch to get going might be related to the low-idle issue. After the twisties, I smelt something burning like rubber. I point it out to my buddy and he suggests maybe it's from the brakes. We eat dinner and crash at the hotel, and the bike seemed fine before going to bed. Next morning, the day of the ride home, I have trouble starting the bike again with the whole low-idle thing. Choke on and she seemed to keep at 1100rpm with full-choke on.

I'm concerned at this point, but figured let's just take the quickest way home (still a good 230km of highway riding home or 280km of local roads). Loaded the bikes up and ready to go, but then even with choke on running the bike, the clutch is slipping like crazy. Even at full throttle, I've got nothing. We figure out it's the clutch that's causing the issue. Decide to take local roads home with a failing clutch, with a max speed of 75km/h on 80km/h speed limit roads.

FINAL INCIDENT:
I make a good 150km or so of local roads with a failing clutch, pulling over to let cars pass and really building up momentum on downhills to get up hills. Clutch finally gives out even at the slightest uphill and shuts down and I have to pull over every 500 metres at this point. I send my friend home and I talk to my brother who coaches me through how to tighten the clutch plates so I can at least make it to his place about 100kms away. It works and I was able to go another 10km on this rural highway, but because everyone is coming back from cottages, this highway is still busy and I still can't keep up with traffic. I plan a route to get off the rural highway, with my exit point a decent 500metres away. A car comes up behind me and riding me. I push the bike at 3rd or 4th gear at 7000rpm and I'm barely hitting 75km/h. I just want to make it to the side road so I don't have to deal with traffic. Fuel starvation kicks in and I end up on the shoulder with a stalled bike.

I wait like I typically do, but under the hot sun and after a weekend full of bike problems, I get pretty impatient and just want to go home. I keep trying to start the bike every 5-10 mins. Nothing. But finally, after almost 10 tries, it finally catches but then dies a second after. So with that hope, I start it again, but crank the throttle to keep the revs up and the bike alive. Too eager to get going again, I crank the RPM to 10,000 rpm then down a bit, then up again to 10g's and all of a sudden, bike dies/stalls, and I see a white puff of smoke from my tailpipe. The bike hasn't started since and I had to get it towed home a night after I left it at some stranger's house.

I haven't had a chance to check or troubleshoot since I got the bike home at 4am this morning. I'm not sure where to start at this point. The battery seems decent; the USB charging system/voltmetre display is still disconnected, the starter button works and the engine is turns, but doesn't start. Doesn't sound like any signs of combustion is happening.

THINGS I KNOW FOR SURE
- Need to replace clutch plates
- Might need to readjust fuel/air screw
- Check battery with proper voltmetre

At this point, I'm trying to assess the level of damage and see if it's worth me putting more dollar bills on this bike, or if I'm better off looking into a new one.

Would anyone have any idea as to what I could've broken or blown with the last incident? I tried to look for a similar symptom, but nothing so far.

I'll try seeing if any air comes out the exhaust pipe tonight when I try to start. And maybe check the spark plugs (if that even makes sense??).


Any help or suggestions much much appreciated!!

- Hon

[user11235813]

Wow, that's a lot of things, I think you're gonna havta tackle this stuff one thing at a time, get all the easy (to diagnose) stuff done first like the clutch, and maybe give the bike a bit of love too, she's prolly crying herself to sleep every night. I'm always leery of mechanics working on bikes, I never believe they care as much as I do about the little things, they'll put something together without cleaning it properly (I think). Don't be afraid to learn, I'm not a serious wrencher but with the help you can get here, it's quite easy to do seemingly complex things like getting the carb sorted. Others will be along soon with better advice.

[J_Walker]

did it make any clicking or mechanical noises?.. if not, sounds pretty fixable.

[ajensen]

First--pull the spark plugs and see if they are wet or dry.
Next--check for spark. Be careful because I have seen a fire started with a flooded engine and a spark.
Next--put your finger over each spark plug hole, turn the engine over to check compression. Your finger should be blown off each side.

To run, an engine needs the proper mixture of gas and air, compression, and spark at the right time.

It seems highly unlikely that your cam chain jumped out of time.

The clutch problem is really strange. If the plates were wearing or the lining was coming off, one would think that there would be less and less play in the clutch lever.

Let us know how things turn out.

[mr72]

The clutch problem is really strange. If the plates were wearing or the lining was coming off, one would think that there would be less and less play in the clutch lever.

Sounds to me like the clutch was slipping for whatever reason, could be anything from wrong oil to worn clutch plates. Then a mechanic thought it was slipping because insufficient free play and added free play, which did not fix the problem at all, but in fact caused it to drag when engaged which would have accelerated wear and also caused the problem of stalling when at a stop with the clutch in.

The rest of the issues all sound like either misc. random small things that were left unattended or side effects of misdiagnosis of the clutch problem. So I agree, fix the first thing that was broken, that's the clutch. Get it adjusted correctly and change the oil for the correct oil just to be sure. Then work out the remaining running issues, which are all minor at least... ordinary high-mileage service like remove/clean carbs (don't spray carb cleaner in them with the diaphragms installed!), check for vacuum leaks, replace intake boot o-rings, set float level and verify float needles are not sticking, do a compression test (with a gauge, not your finger!) to verify correct compression on both cylinders, check valve clearances, once all that's done and carbs are back on start the bike and set the idle speed and mixture according to the FSM procedure (ignore 99% of the internet advice on this for now), so at least you have the bike in a known runnable state. Sounds like a lot of stuff but literally everything I just said can be  done before lunch on a Saturday morning. The only thing that will give you trouble in that time frame is if you have tight valves then you'll likely have to leave it apart for a week while you order replacement shims.

I'd just file this as "old bike service" and also a GS500 plugged-in owner's learning curve accelerator.

[ajensen]

mr. 72 has really good suggestions. However, I'd get the engine running first just to make sure that there is nothing seriously wrong with it. You did not indicate any rattles and clunks, but if there are, repairs can be really expensive.

[mr72]

mr. 72 has really good suggestions. However, I'd get the engine running first just to make sure that there is nothing seriously wrong with it. You did not indicate any rattles and clunks, but if there are, repairs can be really expensive.

Good point. I'd add to that: get it running IN NEUTRAL and that way the clutch dragging is not part of the "running" issues.

[honline]

Thanks for all your replies and suggestions so far! forgot to mention that my mechanic last summer did do a valve clearance check because I asked him to, and he said everything checked out within spec.

I've uploaded a video of what it sounds like when I hit the starter button:

@user11235813: Yeah been on this forum a lot to diagnose issues and see how people work things out. The community for the GS is amazing.

@J_Walker: No, no clicking or mechanical sounds. Only a bit of a dinging sound when I loosened and re-tightened the clutch plates the first time, but then I retightened it again and the dinging sound went away. I'm assuming that I probably didn't tighten the clutch plates enough the first time around.

@ajensen: Sorry what I meant from the clutch engaging later is that the friction zone lasts longer, so it fully engages later. The initial engagement is still at the same point, so I'm essentially riding the clutch longer and longer as time went on, so clutch prob, really isn't that strange; just a bad description by me. But yes, the first order of business is getting the bike to start and run while in neutral for sure.

@mr72: I'll definitely pick up a compression tester gauge and see what I get. And yeah, like you said, once the bike is running (if it ever does again), that's when I'll do the clutch replacement, test leaks on the carbs/carb boots and look into all the other problems.

Thanks again for all your replies and suggestions! I'm just getting ready for a trip to LA for a week so lots of packing to do and prep for, but I'll be tending to all this a week and a half from now. If I have time before I leave, I'll look into sparks from spark plug, and any other easy stuff like checking if air comes out the muffler as I hit the starter button. I'll keep you guys posted.

[mr72]

And yeah, like you said, once the bike is running (if it ever does again), that's when I'll do the clutch replacement, test leaks on the carbs/carb boots and look into all the other problems.

My suggestion is that one or more of those problems may be causing it to not run. I would address all that (except the clutch) as a first step to get it to running condition, provided it has compression and spark.

[tobyd]

Definitely got petrol in it right? Not that I'd ever had this problem

[honline]

So I finally got around to working on the bike again (got a 2 year old to tend to) after the trip. Here's an update.

GAS TANK
@tobyd, I checked the gas tank and with much embarrassment, there was nothing left in there... But I also had a slow gas leak in one of the fuel lines from a loose bracket. So I think it's a combo of low/no gas and gas leak. I half filled the tank with gas and replaced the loose bracket that cause the leak.
-- Check

BATTERY
The battery voltage was also running around 11V at startup. I left it charging while I tended to the plugs and other things.
-- Check

SPARK PLUGS
I pulled the plugs and saw that the left plug was really fouled up, while the right plug was dry and white. The left plug also had no spark, while the right side had a half decent one. I replaced the plugs and they both fire fine.
-- Check

COMPRESSION TEST #1
I checked the compression with my new trusty gauge from Amazon. The left side read about 125psi, while the right read pretty low at 105psi. These readings are on a cold engine as the bike didn't start up at the time.
-- Low Compression

CARBURETOR
I tweaked the carburetor idle screw thinking it was my air/fuel mixture screw all the way in, then out 2.5 turns and the bike started but revved really high. Turned the choke off and it was still revving high so I did some digging to find out that the long screw was actually my idle screw. I started it back up to tweak the idle down to around 1000rpm. I found the proper air/fuel mixture screws and screwed them out to 2.5 turns out and she was running but with a build up of white exhaust smoke.
-- Check for now...

COMPRESSION TEST #2
With the bike warmed up, I did a second compression reading and this time, I got closer to the specs at 137psi on the left and 133psi on the right.
-- Compression still on low end, but at least she runs.

VALVE CLEARANCE
So with more digging, found that the white exhaust and lower compression might stem from tight valve clearance (somebody correct me if I'm wrong here). So figured it wouldn't hurt to at least check the clearance. I have a set of feeler gauges, but didn't realize that the range differs from set to set. My lowest is 0.05mm and for the right intake valve, it's going in but with a bit of force. I'm assuming that it should be on spec of 0.03mm-0.04mm. The two exhaust valves however wouldn't go in at all at 0.05mm. I haven't checked the left intake valve yet. Figured I might as well wait til I get a proper feeler gauge first. But from the forum, the exhaust feels like it would definitely need new shims since the forum suggests closer to a 0.10mm clearance.
-- Intake valve might be okay, exhaust valves seem tight.

CLUTCH
Parts are coming in later this week. Hoping to tackle that next week.


Thanks again for all your suggestions and advice!! Please let me know if there's anything I should try and do as well while I'm at it.



This is where I'm at right now.

[honline]

Another update.

With a set of 0.0254mm and 0.038mm feeler gauges at my disposal, the intakes are within the specified tolerance. The 0.038mm fit in both sides perfectly.

The exhaust on the other hand, were really tight. The right intake fits the 0.0254mm with some resistance while the left intake didn't fit at all.

I ordered the valve shim tool, but while I waited, I tried my luck with the screwdriver method to remove the shims. Didn't work so well. Spent a lot of time and frustration with it, mainly because it's the exhaust and the crossbar that connects the frame is blocking any decent leverage from a medium sized screwdriver. I tried a small allen key, but it bent and fell into the oil galley where my rag didn't cover... Fished it out easily enough with an magnetic tool though. Hopefully, it'll be that much easier once I get that special tool.

As for the clutch, I got that replaced pretty easily from the many gstwins resources (thanks!). The only thing I need to do is torque the basket cover properly, and spend some time scraping off the old gasket.

I also noticed that I missed a step on the new friction plates just now. One of the sources I found mentioned roughing up the friction plates before soaking in oil. Is that really really necessary? By that I mean, do I need to take them out of the basket again, and rough them out, clean them, re-soak them and reinstall?

Another thing I wanted to ask was that I didn't really see much debris and such in my clutch basket. I thought maybe there would be a lot more considering the clutch was pretty much shot. Is that normal? I haven't really truly inspected the old plates yet as they were covered with oil still.

[gsJack]

https://i.imgur.com/hhdqbMu.jpg