Lean angle of GS

[user11235813]

I thought I could just take a photo and rotate it but it doesn't work for some reason, maybe perspective.

Anyhoo, I was wondering what lean angle a standard naked GS will be when the stock footpads begin to touch the tarmac?

[rscottlow]

Farther than I'm willing to lean it over so far...except that time I grabbed front brake while pulling into my gravel driveway

[J_Walker]

its not the bikes, it's the tires. street tires are generally rated at 1.1g's that gives you about a 45 degree lean angle with some margin of error.

[Watcher]

Don't know exactly, probably closer to around 35-40° or so, the GS doesn't have amazing ground clearance, especially not with my weight on it 

Of course proper body positioning can really compensate for that.

[Darkstar]

I lean mine over very low and have never scraped the pegs. Stock Battleass. The thing is, aside from a track, I haven't found a public turn where I actually need to get that low anyway. It's more about getting my body down low and towards the front, and trying to keep the bike more upright, so the front patch is still wide, and the weight more even as I accelerate. A few pics, for what it's worth:

https://imgur.com/a/H4D692u

https://imgur.com/a/ld1WKoQ

[user11235813]

@Darkstar,

OK thanks that is useful information. The reason that I'm asking is not that I'm wishing to grind my pegs down on the street, it's just that, as mentioned earlier upthread, I am already aware that a 45º angle will maintain an approximate g force of 1, meaning I need not worry about lowsiding on a good surface and if I am to believe you tube that on a good quality wet asphalt that has been washed clean that a 45º angle will still be .9g!

I am wishing to gain more confidence riding relaxed in wet weather, not trying to see how far I can lean in wet weather. So I was hoping to try and get a feel of when I am approaching say 40º so I can get a good feel of what that degree of lean is like when riding. Because I suspect that I get too tense at much less lean angles than this in the wet unnecessarily.

So I was hoping to practice a bit in dry weather. However I find it difficult to be able to tell, I suspect that my lean angle is less steep that it seems. Much like how a gradient appears to be steeper than it is when climbing up and more shallow than what it is climbing down.

The pegs confused me because they are designed to sweep back a very long way, making me think that maybe scraping them would be pretty ordinary. But it appears to not be the case.

So really what I'd like to know is how to be able to tell what  a 40º lean angle feels like on the bike. I don't want to find out the hard way. But I also don't want to be unnecessarily nervous.

thx.

[herennow]

I did a rider training course a few years ago, and they did an interesting test -  during lunch the guys secretly marked a bit of the sides of our tires - that we couldn't see when parked - with white chalk. After some procedures they came around and could see how far we'd be leaning over. Obviously this doesn't relate directly to degrees but was interesting see how close to the edge of the tire side we came to.

[Darkstar]

I am wishing to gain more confidence

Reducing fear is a very good thing for me. To help with this, I take small road cones out into a a nearby empty lot, it has good pavement and nobody uses it. I lay out a figure eight path or whatever, and go at it, increasing my speed each time i go around. It's a great way to push yourself and get a feel for what the limits are.

[alpo]

I don't know the actual lean angle, but it will lean farther than you think. Touching the pegs down is just an indicator - it will lean more. Likely to the edge of the tires given proper suspension setup.

[Watcher]

I am wishing to gain more confidence riding relaxed in wet weather, not trying to see how far I can lean in wet weather. So I was hoping to try and get a feel of when I am approaching say 40º so I can get a good feel of what that degree of lean is like when riding. Because I suspect that I get too tense at much less lean angles than this in the wet unnecessarily.

Something that helped my wet-weather confidence, especially after my wet-weather low-side, was watching MotoGP in the rain and seeing how they take their corners.  Spoiler alert, it's still at insane speeds while dragging knees.  If they can do it at 100+ MPH on track tires, I figured it's not a big deal doing it at 30, 40, 50 on all-weather tires.

But one thing that may seem counter-intuitive is that riding with a more aggressive posture will actually make the motorcycle more stable, and can be of great benefit in lower traction conditions.  Understand that the more YOU lean, the less the bike has to.  Take the same turn at the same speed on the same line, one time staying "stiff" on the bike and one time leaning into the turn, and you may scrape peg when you're stiff and not when you're leaning.
It's the same reason I never bought into the whole "chicken strip" game.  You can have awful posture and really get the bike low, or you can have excellent posture and not lean the bike as much, but be at the same speed either way, and the former will have a smaller chicken-strip.

These pictures are poor but they illustrate the point very well.  These two riders are *probably* taking about the same type of turn at the same general speed, but the above rider is leaning OUT of the turn while the second rider is being "stiff".  The lean angle of the bike of the first rider is way steeper.






There is a way to "lean in" without making it seem like you're trying to be Street-Rossi.  It's quite simple.

Start with your feet.  If you haven't been riding on the balls of your feet, start.  If you have been, then good.
You want to move your outside foot onto the arch for the duration of the turn, this sort of turns your hips into the direction of the turn.  Try this right now in your desk chair, with your feet flat on the floor try and pull your left foot back and push your right foot forward.  Which way did your hips try to move?  Hopefully it was left.

With your hips wanting to move left, you should turn your shoulders as well.  Just a little, don't twist around, just get your body facing into the turn.

Your arms should be relaxed.  Like, super relaxed.  Can't stress this enough, stiff arms is a stiff bike and a stiff bike doesn't flow with the road, relax your arms.  Your hands should be relaxed as well, holding on just tight enough to maintain control.  Truth be told I rarely have a totally enclosed grip with my left hand, right hand has to be for the throttle, but the looser the better.

And the last bit is to lean forward and "in", imagining touching your chin to the mirror.  You don't want to really lay on the bike, just get a gentle lean going.  If it helps, gripping the inside handgrip "like a screwdriver" will naturally drop your elbow down and place your upper body in the correct position, but it's not necessary for street riding and as long as you're relaxed the upper body lean will feel natural.

And that's it.  No knees out, no butt movement, no scoffs from onlookers, just feet offset, hips and shoulders turned in, lean a little forward to "kiss the mirror", and relax.

I'm a little out of time right now but if I can I'll try and find/make a picture to upload later if it's not super clear or feels really awkward for some reason.

[alpo]

Well put, Watcher. 

One thing I would add: Use the heel plate, that weird piece of metal above the footpeg. With the balls of your feet on the pegs press the heel of the outside foot against the heel plate. Doing so will help stabilize you in the corner and contributes to smooth corner exit.  When you get used to using the heel plates they can be helpful in steering the bike.

One does not have to hang off a bike to get around a corner fast. However, hanging off provides a significant advantage of being able adjust the lean angle if required while maintaining your line. If you're sitting upright and leaned all the over you can't lean any more.

If you're really interested in cornering "A Twist of the Wrist" is a great read.

BTW, that guy on the red/black bike is a poster child for how NOT to corner - he's a crash waiting to happen.

[sledge]

BTW, that guy on the red/black bike is a poster child for how NOT to corner - he's a crash waiting to happen.

Haha, you can say that again!
Never seen Rossi do it like that.
Given the angle of the bike and the fact he is almost still upright it's fair to say he is putting up a fight!

[Big Rich]

Fwiw, there are apps for your phone that keep track of your lean angle. So if you have a RAM mount or something on your handlebars you can keep track of how much lean you're getting on your rides.

[Joolstacho]

THE best thing you can do if possible is to ride with other people, especially more experienced riders, then you'll get an idea of optimal speeds and lean angles through bends.
The actual angle can be misleading because of road camber, winds etc.
And personally I think balls of the feet on footrests is a gimmick which leads to less stability especially for inexperienced riders, (very different to racers), plus you have to move your feet to get to the brake or gearshift, again, not good for the inexperienced.

[alpo]

Balls of the feet on the pegs is not a gimmick. The bike is much more controllable when the balls of the feet are on the pegs.

The inexperienced tend to cover the rear brake pedal with their right foot, leading to rear wheel lock-up and low sides. The inexperienced can get better by riding properly. 

[Endopotential]

I've wondered about that "balls of the feet" as well.  What's the rationale?  Is it supposed to give you more leverage to stomp on the inside peg?

Depending on bike geometry, I've found scooching my foot back to get the ball on the peg forces my knee to flex more, which is uncomfortable.

And having to shift back and forth for braking / shifting is a distraction, no?

[alpo]

Think about standing and trying to move quickly. Is it faster when your feet are flat, or when you are balancing on your toes? It's the same premise with riding on the balls of your feet. "Loading the pegs" is a well known practice and is easiest when using the balls of your feet. When the arches of your feet are on the pegs it is painful. Plus, putting the balls of your feet on the pegs allows you to press your heels onto the heel plate, which is essential to controlling the bike in corners.

[Watcher]

And personally I think balls of the feet on footrests is a gimmick which leads to less stability especially for inexperienced riders, (very different to racers), plus you have to move your feet to get to the brake or gearshift, again, not good for the inexperienced.

Balls of the feet on the pegs is not a gimmick. The bike is much more controllable when the balls of the feet are on the pegs.
The inexperienced tend to cover the rear brake pedal with their right foot, leading to rear wheel lock-up and low sides. The inexperienced can get better by riding properly. 

This.


Think of how you drive.  Do you "hover" over the pedals continuously?  What about the gear-shifter, do you keep hold of it?  Generally you only cover a control if you expect to use the control, if you aren't using the control then don't cover it.  That's why so many cars have "dead pedals" to the left of the clutch, your foot steps onto the clutch, your foot uses the clutch, your foot steps off the clutch, otherwise you have a tendency to not only fatigue faster but also wear the clutch inadvertently.  Same with the brake/gas, you're either on it, covering it in anticipation, or off it.  Same with the shifter, if you aren't shifting you should be hands on the wheel.

A poor habit I often have to break new riders of is constantly covering the brakes.  That's fine if you expect to stop, but SO many people try to operate the throttle while covering the brake and it's incredibly difficult to do with any semblance of control, and as Alpo says it leads to a tendency for riders to panic-brake.

You're the most stable and the most "athletic" on the bike on the balls of your feet.  You should step onto the brake to use the brake, then step back off onto the peg.  You should step onto/under the shifter to use the shifter, then step back onto the peg.  You use the clutch then go back to the grip.  You use the brake then go back to the throttle.
If you're doing otherwise you're either missing some finer aspects of control or potentially setting yourself up for error.


Some of the best techniques are born of the race-track, one would be unwise to dismiss them as "go fast only" types of behaviors.

[Endopotential]

Think about standing and trying to move quickly. Is it faster when your feet are flat, or when you are balancing on your toes?

That's not the most apt comparison, as on a motorcycle we're not shuffling our feet to move in space.  Our feet are static (unless shifting/braking) on the pegs, whether it's on the ball or the arch.

But I know it's the thing to do, as all the pros do it.  The one point that is clear is that it buys your feet some more ground clearance.  The rest seems debatable.

Any other explanations out there?

This site makes a good argument for keeping your feet on the arch, unless you're riding at the track.
https://motorbikewriter.com/where-to-put-your-feet-on-the-footpegs/

"On a racetrack, you know where the corners are, you know there is no approaching traffic or livestock wandering across the road and you even know where the braking markers are for the corners.

So you can afford to put the balls of your feet on the pegs to turn and control the bike, knowing exactly when to move your feet forward to shift gears or hit the brakes.

But in the real world you don't know when those emergencies will arise."

Racers use the ball of their foot essentially for more clearance and to save toe sliders; i.e. to get their feet out of the way. Some contort their inside foot so the sole is against the frame so the rear brake and the gear lever can be operated with the side of the foot. And because most use a race-pattern gear shift and now the ubiquitous speed shifter, you only need to tap the gear lever down to hook a higher gear while at an extreme lean angle.

On the road you can get just as much pressure on the outside peg with your instep. And the controls are, as you say, more easily accessible.

[Watcher]

"On a racetrack, you know where the corners are, you know there is no approaching traffic or livestock wandering across the road and you even know where the braking markers are for the corners.
So you can afford to put the balls of your feet on the pegs to turn and control the bike, knowing exactly when to move your feet forward to shift gears or hit the brakes.
But in the real world you don’t know when those emergencies will arise."

I think it's a bogus argument unless you also concede that:
- You should constantly "tickle" the clutch lever and never fully grip the bar.
- You should leave 2-fingers on the brake lever at all times and only use your ring/pinky/thumb to control the throttle.
- You also use your left foot to brake when driving an automatic car.

It takes just as much time to roll off the throttle and reach for the brake lever as it does to step off the peg and onto the brake pedal.  If you're doing one and not the other you're not really at any sort of advantage.  Shifting isn't usually something I'd say you require immediately in an emergency, either.  I'll say this while stating it's important to be stopped in 1st in case of a rearward threat, but you can be on the brakes FIRST and then add your shifting.


Also, unexpected things happen at the track, too, unless you're racing solo.  Those motoGP guys seem capable of avoiding crashed out riders just fine and at much MUCH higher speeds than you typically see on the roadway.  They stand to benefit from a proper braking and avoidance technique as much as the average street rider.


Once again, I'll advocate to cover the controls if you expect to use them.  For example, approaching a busy intersection.  I usually roll off, tickle the brake and clutch, and have my feet set on the pedals, but once I'm through the tricky spot I'm back on the grips and back on the pegs, because for the average road I'm steering and moving my weight around MORE than I'm using the brakes (have you SEEN the condition of the roads out here, lol!).