splitting the engine case

[jiggersplat]

okay... i got the motor out, drained the oil, pulled both side covers, alternator is off, signal generator is off.  top bolt under the start cover is out, bolts under the oil pickup screen are out, allen head bolts near the oil filter are out, and all the bolts around the perimeter are out.  cases won't budge.

the clymer manual says i basically need to disassembly EVERYTHING.  clutch, oil pump, shift mechanism, blah blah blah.  i'm hoping someone will tell me that's not true.

what exactly do i need to take off, and what can i leave on to split the case?

thanks,

[KevinC]

You do need to take the shift mechanism apart. There is a sheet metal plate that bridges the cases that has to be removed. There is also one as a bearing retainer around the output shaft if I remember correctly. The clutch has to come out also. The oil pump can stay in.

The shift mechanism is a lot simpler than it looks. You didn't need to take the alternator rotor off though!. How did you get it off - I'm looking for a simple technique....

Edit: Make sure you look at how the shifter return spring works before you take the shift mechanism apart. It is the only thing I was scratching my head about the first time.

[jiggersplat]

seal retainer around the output shaft and cluck rod is off already.  and i take it back, i didn't *really* take the alternator off.  i only took of the coil part that is inside the cover.

i take it the clutch needs to come out to get to the shift lever bits?

btw, they did they put loctite on every single screw and bolt on the whole bike or what?  i totally mangled on of the screws holding the screen on the oil pickup.

thanks for the tips.  oh, and kevin, i think the tranny parts are at the post office.  i got a notice the other day.  thanks.

[KevinC]

Yep, the clutch needs to come off to get to the shift mechanism. See my edit above to note how the shift return spring works before you pull the shift mechanism.

It is probably easier to take the oil pump out too, although not entirely necessary. It may be possible to bend the oil pump shft if you don't get the primary drive gear teeth engaged with it properly, and then try to tighten the clutch nut. Don't ask me how I know! There are only the three bolts holding the oil pump in anyway.

Fortunately you don't have to take the alternator rotor off, because it is tricky without special tools.

The crankshaft thrust bearings will likely fall out.

When reassembling, put the sealer on the top case mating surfaces.

It all looks worse than it actually is. If you have a digital camera, some photos before dissasembly would be nice for a memory jogger.

[Bob Broussard]

The clutch hub is the hardest part of disassembly.
I remove the springs and pull the plates. Take a screwdriver and bend the washer away from the nut where it sets against it.
You'll need a 27mm socket for the nut. Then I take a metal clutch plate and clamp a vise grip plier on the edge. Slide the plier and plate in the hub. This will keep the inner hub from spinning.
I use a 1/2 socket extension through a rod to lock the crank from turning. use a breaker bar to loosen. When you install it, do the same thing and torque to 40lbs.
Pull the inner hub off and make note of the flat washer between the inner and outer hubs.
Then pull off the outer hub.
Remove the bolt holding the arm with a wheel on it. Unhook the spring on the end of the part.
Pull the shift shaft out. The spring will come off the shaft.
Put it on the shaft and spread the ends so they fit on the metal piece sticking out on the shaft.
The ends should be straight up on either side of the metal tab.
Use a impact driver to remove the 3 screws holding the plate on the cases.
The oil pump can stay on.
When you put the clutch hub back on, just reach underneath and turn the pump gear to line it up.

[Rashad]

The clutch hub is the hardest part of disassembly.
I remove the springs and pull the plates. Take a screwdriver and bend the washer away from the nut where it sets against it.
You'll need a 27mm socket for the nut. Then I take a metal clutch plate and clamp a vise grip plier on the edge. Slide the plier and plate in the hub. This will keep the inner hub from spinning.
I use a 1/2 socket extension through a rod to lock the crank from turning. use a breaker bar to loosen. When you install it, do the same thing and torque to 40lbs.
Pull the inner hub off and make note of the flat washer between the inner and outer hubs.
Then pull off the outer hub.
Remove the bolt holding the arm with a wheel on it. Unhook the spring on the end of the part.
Pull the shift shaft out. The spring will come off the shaft.
Put it on the shaft and spread the ends so they fit on the metal piece sticking out on the shaft.
The ends should be straight up on either side of the metal tab.
Use a impact driver to remove the 3 screws holding the plate on the cases.
The oil pump can stay on.
When you put the clutch hub back on, just reach underneath and turn the pump gear to line it up.

This is awsome advice!!  Bob is the man, and one of the major helpers when i came to splitting my cases..

Hey jigger, do a search on my 10 page thread titled Rashads Saga, and youll get a lot of good info there too!

[yamahonkawazuki]

aint it always that one  nut/bolt that makes it a  :x umm, (censored)pain?   trust me, once you do this, you will know how to do again, like ive said in other topics, ask rashad about his novel :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:  :mrgreen:   anyhoo, best of luck to ya

[jiggersplat]

okay guys, got the clutch out.  the nut holding the clutch hub on was scary easy to get off.  i used vice grips to grab one of the fins on the inside of the hub just to hold it.  it didn't really take any force to break the nut loose.  

the shifter shaft won't come out, i guess it's bent.  i think it can stay in though, right?   anyway, the shaft is disengaged.  

but holy cow, are those three screws in there good.  i'm not gonna try to get them out without an impact gun, they will definately get stripped.  no impact gun at the moment, but my 30gal compressor (see my other thread on painting the frame) should be here on monday, so i guess it will just have to wait until then.

honestly though, why are all the screws in this bike so hard to get out?

[Rashad]

okay guys, got the clutch out.  the nut holding the clutch hub on was scary easy to get off.  i used vice grips to grab one of the fins on the inside of the hub just to hold it.  it didn't really take any force to break the nut loose.  

the shifter shaft won't come out, i guess it's bent.  i think it can stay in though, right?   anyway, the shaft is disengaged.  

but holy cow, are those three screws in there good.  i'm not gonna try to get them out without an impact gun, they will definately get stripped.  no impact gun at the moment, but my 30gal compressor (see my other thread on painting the frame) should be here on monday, so i guess it will just have to wait until then.

honestly though, why are all the screws in this bike so hard to get out?

GO get yourself an impact hand screwdriver. I use this thing all the time... it will make your life soo easy, and its very effective. You dont need an air tool to get those screws out, get the manual driver and you can use that as a screwdriver for other things as well.. Its got a thick handle, so very torquey too. You just tap it with a hammer and it turns the screw either left or right, based on the way you have it set.

[Blueknyt]

Impact Driver, its a device that holds sockets and bits, that you put on like a screwdriver and smack the end like a chisle, or punch, this will break alot of things loose. its a hair saver.

[jiggersplat]

thanks for the heads up on the impact driver.  i didn't even occur to me that their might be manual ones.  i picked on up for $10 this morning at the local auto parts store and the case is now split.

the tranny shafts are out, no visible problems with the output shaft (see thread on wobbly output shaft) but it's hard to tell.  i can't imagine what else would be causing the shaft to wobble like it was other than a bent shaft or bad bearings.  anyway, i'd start putting everything back together, but my girlfriend is here and i'm not allowed to play with my vehicles for the time being.

i saw in rashad's epic tale some comments on permatex for closing the case back up.  is that what is generally recommended?

thanks,

[Blueknyt]

any # of motorcycle shops have a semi drying compound that seals the gases, its made just for that due to there are no gaskets for the cases, HOW EVER, do not use this for clutch cover.  the oil feeder for the ballencer shaft is in that cover and oil pressure will blow it out. you must use a gasket there. a tube is only about 10$ and it does go along way. If your handy, you can cut your own gaskets from a roll of gasket paper, 5-10$ for good size roll,  clutch cover gasket is 9$ alone. only gasket i wont chance is the head gasket, im lookin for that company that makes em out of sheet copper, you can use them over and over if you are carful with em.

[Bob Broussard]

I wouldn't risk making your own gaskets for the side covers. There are holes in the gaskets that allow oil to get to the counterbalancer bearings. Also, Don't use thick gasket forming sealers. I use Permatex aviation sealer. It comes in a small white bottle with a brush inside the lid. You need very little to seal the case halfs. If you use a sealer that is too thick it will effect the crank bearing clearences.
On the side cases, I only use the sealer on the case to hold the gasket in place. Leave the engine side dry. Then the case will come off without damaging the gasket.
The gasket will seal fine without sealer. Be careful with any sealer around the oil channel for the counterbalancer bearings. They can get plugged up very easily.
As far as head and base gaskets go, I use the stock steel ones. I re-use them all the time with no problems at all. After the first use, some of the factory coating will come off. I clean it all off with laquer thinner. Then just re-use it dry.
I've heard some guys spray copper coat sealer on them and let them dry before using them.

[Gisser]

For once, I have to disagree with one slice of advice from BB.  I don't know if any semi-liquid substance can measurably affect bearing clearances once the fasteners are torqued down, but I do know that the manufacturers recommend a specific type of nonaerobic, nonsilicate sealant such as Yamabond--which is a dealership item--to seal the engine case halves.  My own experience with Permatex Aviation Sealer on other projects have resulted in expensive failure and it's a wonder that it has held up to the rigors of small engine usage in Bob's experience.  Very risky considering the time and labor involved in assembling an engine.

[Bob Broussard]

It's surprising to hear you had some failures related to Permatex sealer.
The only areas I use it is on the main cases and on paper gaskets.
On the case halves I use it along the front and back edge and the countershaft area. The other areas are inside the side case areas.
Then I use on 1 side of the paper gaskets, so I can remove the cases without damaging the gasket.
There's no extreme pressure where I use it.
If you use a silicone gasket sealer the excess will ooze out. There have been sitations where a dried piece vibrated loose and clogged some oil passages.
I've used a product called "The Right Stuff". It comes in an aerosol can. It works great.
The valve cover on my GSXR head is milled flush on the ends. It fits tight against the side plates on the head, but oil gets out.
So I put a bead of the right stuff on the plates and slide the valve cover on. It sticks to the plates and forms a rubber like seal in minutes. When I pull the cover it stays in place very nicely.
I think it's a urethane based form a gasket product. Much better than silicone type sealents. Pricy though.

[Blueknyt]

Yes, the Yamabond and others like it is to what i was refering too. its a non hardening semi drying sealing compound made for the engine casings.  as to side covers believe it or not, aslong as its good quality gasket matirial and your 1/2 way decent with X-acto knife, it shouldnt be an issue, i dont use sealer on side covers, i Coat the gasket matirial with a layer of low fibre wheel bearing grease. I find this seals extreamly well as well as allows one to remove covers and gaskets easly and more often then not, intact to be used again. i have found very little in way of seepage and is generaly cured with a mild retorquing of the bolts, how ever i have not had any "Leaks" caused from using the grease on the gaskets. Most of all what little grease does get away inside the engine will break down with the engine heat, but most of all the low fibre content wont clog pasages that permatect can, it will travel through all pasages and even past bearings without harming anything.  


BB. you reuse the headgaskets? and what of the O-rings? you use replace them with new? the old steal gasket has raised edges that flatten out when torqued does it not? how then could this gasket hole up? i understand with the sheet copper gaskets there is no raised edges and VERY LITTLE distortion when torqued, Copper from my understanding doesnt expaned and contract to the extremes that steel,tin, and aluminium do.  Copper gasket coating you say hmm?? brush on or spray on? Bothsides? whats the removal process like when teardown comes arond again?


Has Anyone found any Info out on weather the profiles are the same on a GS450 cam and a GS500 cam? im serious, having both sets of cams side by side, the castings look the same. but keeping them sep just incase.

[Bob Broussard]

I've never had a problem re-using the steel head/base gaskets several times. Even the o-rings can be re-used. I don't coat them with anything myself. Of course I clean and inspect them for wear each time. As often As my race motor is torn down it would cost way too much in gaskets if I couldn't re-use them. Hell, I even re-use the exhaust gaskets as much as possible.
The guys that race the FZR 400 told me about using the copper coat on the stock head gasket. It is a spray. Apparently they have problems with overheating and head gaskets leaking.
Try www.cometic.com to see if they offer a copper gasket.

[Gisser]

That copper sealant can be had at any NAPA store.  Comes as either an aerosol or can/brush.  The copper is suspended in a glue substance.  I used it on my GS headgasket for peace of mind and it doesn't create a mess now or for later.

As for Permatex Aviation Sealant, I used it to seal my cousin's 4wd t/c case halves and it leaked like a sieve.  Can't imagine exactly what application the stuff was designed to handle as it's more of a paste than a flexible gasket.  I'll keep my eye open for The Right Stuff, though.

[Blueknyt]

thanks for the link. found it

http://www.cometic.com/Cycle/cyclepdf/Suz/SuzSRRS.pdf


they use same gasket size for 450-500cc and even one made for 79mmbore 555cc now to call, get price and have heart attack.

[Kito]

Hey... just to record on the forum that have a F%$#$ bolt inside the starter motor case! (as shon in the service manual)

So please, do not forget to open that damn case!

Cheers