Clutch acting weird

[qcbaker]

I believe the difference is in the way the load is applied through the clutch. Shift with the clutch and it's a smooth progressive and controlled action in a way the drivetrain is designed to accommodate. Shift without the clutch and it's basically  a shock load to system with the clutch being the weak point on the basis of it being a wear part. Ok once in a while but continually?......... Nah.

As for clutches shifting not presenting the potential for serious damage........tell this guy!!

https://www.kawiforums.com/zx-10r/199298-clutchless-shifting-2.html#/topics/199298?page=2
...

1.) I guess I get what you're saying about it being a shock load and it not being what it's designed for and all that. I wish there were some empirical data on the subject. Seems to me that the better you are at it, the fewer ill effects it would have. I'd say that if done perfectly precisely (basically impossible for a human), it would cause no wear. The further out you get from perfect, the more wear it would cause.

2.) Not gonna lie, I simply do not believe that the transmission in that thread was that destroyed simply by clutchless upshifting. Unless the dude redlined in neutral and then tried to pop the bike into 1st or something, which seems incredibly unlikely. I'd need a lot more info about the bike and how it was treated before I could possibly even begin to speculate about what happened to it.

For the record I don't think clutchless shifting is faster and it's definitely not smoother, so I rarely if ever do it.
Racers don't do it either (quick-shifter is a different story).

I would think it's "faster" since it saves you the couple of milliseconds you would otherwise use to pull the clutch in and out. Sort of irrelevant for street riding, but might be relevant while racing.

"Smoother" is a bit more nebulous though, don't you think? I think the "smoothness" of the shift depends on how well its executed and how fast you're going. On my ride in to work this morning, I did clutchless upshifts from 2nd to 6th staying really high in the rev range and it felt really smooth. I'd say smoother than if I had used the clutch. But, if I hadn't been basically trying to accelerate as fast as possible, would it have felt as smooth? Probably not. Personally I'd say it CAN be smoother, but not always.

As for racers doing it, I've heard some people say they do, some people say they don't. Probably more down to individual style/situation than anything else.

You need to roll off/on the throttle regardless of using the clutch, and that requires movement from a slower and less precise muscle group than the fingers, so I think the timing and control of a shift for a good rider is limited by the throttle throw/precision/response more than the clutch window.  I think that on a normal bike, then, there's no real disadvantage to using the clutch, since the timing will be the same more or less regardless.

I don't disagree that throttle control is a very important part of shifting, but I don't really see how it wouldn't be faster to eliminate one step of the process. The time you spend operating the clutch is eliminated, therefore the shift is completed ever so slightly faster. At the very least, that's how it feels when I do it. Maybe my clutch hand is just slower than yours, but it definitely feels faster/smoother to me lol.

I'm also currently in the camp that a clutchless shift is only really a problem when done incorrectly, but the rate of human error is quite high making the clutch itself a more or less vital tool in compensating for a lack in precision.

I can agree with that.

Also, somewhere on the WWW is a clutch-cam video/GIF of a high level racer rapidly using the clutch for shifting.  I guess if there's one true statement it's that not all racers use quickshifters and of the ones that don't not all shift without the clutch...

I think you'd be hard pressed to find an "advanced" technique that 100% of racers use 100% of the time. To me, clutchless upshifts are just another tool in the toolbox of riding techniques. If you absolutely must shave .001 seconds off your shift time (or just want to have some fun lol) and your bike is not equipped with a quickshifter, it's the right tool for the job.

[sledge]

I can quite easily believe it happened.

When something breaks inside a gearbox ie a tooth comes off a gear or the end breaks off a selector fork what do you think is going to happen to that part?

Remember.....It's in an enclosed space along with a number of closely mating parts spinning at thousands of rpm and full of momentum 

[Kito]

OK, even not completely recovered from a virose, and still having a mild fever... I pulled out the clutch cover to inspect the system. ( this is also a kind of illness.. mental one.. lol... however I could not wait)

The springs were well above the limit = 64mm

The clutch disks thickness = 2.95(2)  respecting the specs

The metals disks were ok, not warped at all.. subtle signs of wear, nothing that scary.

But the problem was that the clutch material was kind of flaking off.

(one time I had a blast with the bike with the oil level really low.... I believe this was the "ground Shihttt zero"
when I screw off the oil stick... smoke went out of the case)






I found a pretty precise explanation at quora thats really describe all the scenario

"The standard material on most Japanese and some late Model European Motorcycles with wet clutches is a rubber impregnated cork (co efficient of about 0.03). This rubber impregnated cork material does not grip well (low Coefficient) and slips so it is prone to glazing. Once glazed, it will continue to slip until the Clutch Plates are replaced. This slipping may not be noticable and yet it will cause excess heat which can cause damage. Unfortunately, Cork is not known to handle heat well and the cork may de-laminate from the plate it is bonded to. Heat may also cause hot spots and warping of the intermediate (steel drive plates). Not to mention the damage the heat does to the oil the clutch, gearbox and Motor runs in.

The bottom line is this; Rubber impregnated cork is not the best material to use, it does not grip well, it does not last, it does not offer optimum performance. It is a compromise material and when Original Plates require replacing far superior materials are available."

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-materials-used-for-making-motorcycle-Clutch-plate

Now I will buy new disks, new oil filter... and new oil...

[Kookas]

You need to roll off/on the throttle regardless of using the clutch, and that requires movement from a slower and less precise muscle group than the fingers, so I think the timing and control of a shift for a good rider is limited by the throttle throw/precision/response more than the clutch window.  I think that on a normal bike, then, there's no real disadvantage to using the clutch, since the timing will be the same more or less regardless.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but it's the other way around for me. I feel like the bite 'window' is way too long, too much travel for me to be able to do it as smoothly as I'd like.

[Watcher]

You need to roll off/on the throttle regardless of using the clutch, and that requires movement from a slower and less precise muscle group than the fingers, so I think the timing and control of a shift for a good rider is limited by the throttle throw/precision/response more than the clutch window.  I think that on a normal bike, then, there's no real disadvantage to using the clutch, since the timing will be the same more or less regardless.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but it's the other way around for me. I feel like the bite 'window' is way too long, too much travel for me to be able to do it as smoothly as I'd like.

I really should remake this video.  Now that I have an exhaust you can actually hear you can tell what RPM range I'm in a little easier, and I should plan it out a little better so my explanations aren't so rambly and spontaneous.  I'm also planning on getting more cameras, so maybe I can get multiple angles.  Hopefully both a clutch-cam and a shifter-cam.