So what are the really bad motorcycles out there?

[MaxD]

I think Mr72 is on to something when he points out that buyers of cheap bikes also tend to be people who are hard on the machines and don't do good maintenance.  Whatever problems are inherent in the lower cost design are then magnified.  On the other hand, if a bike is good enough to attract a dedicated on-line forum, what problems it has are reduced, and it ends up perceived quite differently.   

My first bike was a 1979 Honda CX500.  I liked its looks, but some people thought it was ugly.  One reviewer called it "the plastic maggot", and that name stuck.  But, the bike had many virtues and over time it attracted a set of owners who appreciated it.  A dedicated on-line user group formed around the bike, and now it is a very well loved machine. 

A users group like this one makes a huge difference in making a bike worth maintaining long term--it is effectively a large step up in the quality of the machine and the rewards of owning it.   And, it is just a lot more fun to have the community of knowledgeable users to swap information with than it is to be stuck trying to figure everything out all by yourself.  The reduction of the hassle factor and the enjoyment of discussing the issues with other owners make the ownership experience much better.

[Watcher]

If we ignore the pasta-rockets and other oddballs and see only Japanese, there are 4 choices in a sportbike.  CBR, Ninja, YZF-R, and GSXR.
In a perfect world they'd have even popularity, so 25% of people have CBRs, 25% have Ninjas, etc etc.
It's not perfect, but it's not exactly an obvious bias.  GSXRs and Ninjas seem, to me, to be the more popular while CBRs and YZF-Rs are less popular, but it's so small a difference.  Let's be really obvious and say it's like 35% of people have GSXRs, 30% have Ninjas, 20% CBR, 15% YZF-R.  (Realistically I think 30% max on the GSXR).

It still ends up being 65% of people DON'T have GSXRs, while something like 90% of stators and reg/rec that I order are for GSXRs.

I think that's more than a popularity + user demographic bias, I think it's a manufacturing issue.  Especially since it's not like "oh my cams rounded off!" "Well, you never changed your oil ever".  Electrical stuff is relatively maintenance free, either it's made to last or it's junk.

For certain year GSXRs they actually make a reg/rec relocation kit that moves it under the tail section farther from any sources of heat.  Supposedly that how newer GSXRs are placing them and it's supposed to be more reliable.  Heat can damage electronics, huh, who would have known?  Everyone except Suzuki, it seems.

[The Buddha]

Oh yea, place a delicate catastrophic if failed but still cheap part so you can replace it under warranty but claim that owner negligence caused the other more $$$$$ part to fail in a spot prone to get ruined, or hope it can take 2-3 of the cheaper part failing, so you can get em for the $$$$ part when it fails out of warranty ... Case in point - Vulcan 750 - under the battery in front of the rear wheel just above the swingarm brace. Awesome. Muck, battery acid and engine heat. The trifecta. If it fails, its likely to take out the alternator. A $50 part fails, taking with it a $2000 (engine out of the frame to fix the alternator).

Other terrible locations for the regulator/rectifier - On top of the exhaust goat belly between the swingarm and exhaust in front of the rear wheel. Yes all the muck will fall on it + teh exhaust heat will cook it, plus you cant clean it.

The GS one is in a good spot, but the cake IMHO is the nighthawk 700/650/550 of 83-86. Under the Left side cover.

Cool.
Buddha.

[J_Walker]

If we ignore the pasta-rockets and other oddballs and see only Japanese, there are 4 choices in a sportbike.  CBR, Ninja, YZF-R, and GSXR.
In a perfect world they'd have even popularity, so 25% of people have CBRs, 25% have Ninjas, etc etc.
It's not perfect, but it's not exactly an obvious bias.  GSXRs and Ninjas seem, to me, to be the more popular while CBRs and YZF-Rs are less popular, but it's so small a difference.  Let's be really obvious and say it's like 35% of people have GSXRs, 30% have Ninjas, 20% CBR, 15% YZF-R.  (Realistically I think 30% max on the GSXR).

It still ends up being 65% of people DON'T have GSXRs, while something like 90% of stators and reg/rec that I order are for GSXRs.

I think that's more than a popularity + user demographic bias, I think it's a manufacturing issue.  Especially since it's not like "oh my cams rounded off!" "Well, you never changed your oil ever".  Electrical stuff is relatively maintenance free, either it's made to last or it's junk.

For certain year GSXRs they actually make a reg/rec relocation kit that moves it under the tail section farther from any sources of heat.  Supposedly that how newer GSXRs are placing them and it's supposed to be more reliable.  Heat can damage electronics, huh, who would have known?  Everyone except Suzuki, it seems.

And again, Suzuki doesn't make recalls... the power seats might come unplugged in a modern car. RECALL. Stator falls apart sending bits inside your engine. Suzuki "meh, sucks 2 be you" Calipers fail due to bad castings. suzuki "meh, should of been going less fast"

Of course since motorcycles are seen as luxury items.. they aren't being held to the same standards as cars, at least in the USA and canada. Look how much flak VW got for cheating emissions. yet Harley did the EXACT same thing, AND GOT CAUGHT. not a single mention of it on the news tho.

[J_Walker]

Oh yea, place a delicate catastrophic if failed but still cheap part so you can replace it under warranty but claim that owner negligence caused the other more $$$$$ part to fail in a spot prone to get ruined, or hope it can take 2-3 of the cheaper part failing, so you can get em for the $$$$ part when it fails out of warranty ... Case in point - Vulcan 750 - under the battery in front of the rear wheel just above the swingarm brace. Awesome. Muck, battery acid and engine heat. The trifecta. If it fails, its likely to take out the alternator. A $50 part fails, taking with it a $2000 (engine out of the frame to fix the alternator).

Other terrible locations for the regulator/rectifier - On top of the exhaust goat belly between the swingarm and exhaust in front of the rear wheel. Yes all the muck will fall on it + teh exhaust heat will cook it, plus you cant clean it.

The GS one is in a good spot, but the cake IMHO is the nighthawk 700/650/550 of 83-86. Under the Left side cover.

Cool.
Buddha.

I really want the new FJR1300.

but I always pre-read the maintenance manuals before I buy stuff.

At like 8k miles you have to replace/reapply the grease in the swing arm bushing...

Hah-ha....hah....... yeah everything just needs to come off and its like a 4 hour job, and not covered under most maintenance warranty's dealers offered.

you also have to test and adjust the throttle body's pretty early too, dealers are charging like 600 bucks to do this, when actually its one of the easier things to do yourself, expect its still a 200 dollar tool to do it.

[Endopotential]

Case in point - Vulcan 750 - under the battery in front of the rear wheel just above the swingarm brace. Awesome. Muck, battery acid and engine heat. The trifecta. If it fails, its likely to take out the alternator. A $50 part fails, taking with it a $2000 (engine out of the frame to fix the alternator).
Buddha.

You speaking from personal experience there Buddha?  That sounds like a horrific mess.

Watcher, I'm thinking / hoping that manufacturers are more responsible with modern bikes.  My first one was a Yamaha R3, and they replaced the oil pump right away on a recall, before there was really a big rash of events.  Good little bike, but I thankfully sold it before the multiple recalls that followed for triple tree, clutch, gas tank...

[MaxD]

Heat can damage electronics, huh, who would have known?  Everyone except Suzuki, it seems.

In the electronics business, one of the things we have to keep in mind is that every 10 degC rise in temperature approximately doubles the failure rate. So, we're constantly making that trade-off of more expensive packages, more board area, more expensive heat sinks, etc, to keep the heat down. 

[Kiwingenuity]

Electrical stuff is relatively maintenance free, either it's made to last or it's junk.

+1 to this - having spent a small amount of $ buying no less than 10 new regulators of dubious Chinese manufacture with every single one failing out of the box - JUNK.

Throw a little more $$ at a Sun regulator made in Japan and the difference is night an day in terms of quality and in the quality control.

My job requires me to specify and evaluate electrical equipment every day - and there is a big difference in longevity when you pay that little bit more.

Aside from the wiring harness issues with Suzukis (and some of the Ninjas I have looked at), Suzuki seem to design electrics to within an inch of their life.  I would be more than happy to pay say an additional 10% of unit cost for slightly over rated system components that aren't going to be stressed / last significantly longer than the current factory model.

[The Buddha]

You speaking from personal experience there Buddha?  That sounds like a horrific mess.

I got caught with my first Vulcan 750. Just about broke even on it. But every one since then - Bought for $300 with dead alternator from an owner who has essentially known they have got completely screwed ... cut the frame and fixed it, fixed the regulator location (to the left side instead of under the battery) and sold it for $1500. Ofcourse that was when I had a welder at my disposal, now ... meeh, no welder/fabricator, so no Vulcan 750.

@J_Walker - the carb synch on a FI bike - responds to the same tricks - long piece of tubing thrown over the rafters dipped into a bottle of oil. 4 cyl doesn't work with the U tube method, unless you do 2 at a time and then 1/2 and 1/2.

Cool.
Buddha.

[Kito]

Every bike mag or web post is nearly breathless in their review of just about every bike out there.  No doubt in part because they have to pay homage to their ad sponsors.

And forums are biased because most folks there obviously like their bikes.  Heck, even though we grumble about the cheesium nuts and bolts on our GS, most of us still love the utility and dependability of our humble bikes.

So wondering what are the really bad bike models out there, based on your personal experience.  What's the Yugo or Gremlin equivalent in the motorcycle world?

... with all due respect to american members.. and also american products (both  really good  )

But... if Harleys are not shitty bikes... I really will get pretty confused... 

[pliskin]

I've always heard Ducati's are pretty unreliable and riddled with all kinds of gremlins even though they are packed with all the "best" name brand parts. They are expensive to fix as well. As much as I like the looks of some Ducati's I just stay away from them. I have 2 friends with Ducati's and both of them are always having problems but they never really complain, I think out of embarrassment. Kind of like how VW and Jeep owners stay loyal to the brand even though they are junk.

Same thing with BMW and Harley. Expensive, unreliable and cost a lot to fix.

I've owned a Lifan GY200 (Chinese dual sport). It cost me $1400 brand new. For the price it could not be beat. I put 8k miles on it before I had a single problem (rear shock got sticky). While the build quality was not the best it was very reliable. I could buy 3 of them for the cost of a Japanese equivalent.

[mr72]

I've always heard Ducati's are pretty unreliable and riddled with all kinds of gremlins even though they are packed with all the "best" name brand parts. They are expensive to fix as well.

Highest-performing parts may be "best" in one sense, but not "best" in terms of long-term durability. Kind of like Watcher's complaint about the GSX250R ... that old/slow engine may be super reliable and last forever compared with a more high-strung Yamaha 300, but if you ride one brand new and get on the other brand new you might think the Suz is pretty clunky.

BTW Ducatis fit my suggested model of bikes that last long mostly due to the owners' being predisposed to spending money to keep them working.

Kind of like how VW and Jeep owners stay loyal to the brand even though they are junk.

Hey now! I currently own a Jeep and owned two VWs... But I do agree quality-wise they are junk. But there may be no other vehicle that performs similarly in the category. In the case of my Wrangler, there literally is no other vehicle in the category. Find me another 4WD truck-frame dual solid-axle vehicle with removable top and doors. If Toyota made one I'd buy it instead. I think Ducatis are in the same kind of category. For many of them, there really isn't anything that competes directly and there's that X factor that makes you willing to put up with some faults.

Same thing with BMW and Harley. Expensive, unreliable and cost a lot to fix.

Yep.

I've owned a Lifan GY200 (Chinese dual sport). It cost me $1400 brand new. ... I could buy 3 of them for the cost of a Japanese equivalent.

Excellent point.

[MaxD]

A decent Lifan bike for 1/3 of Japanese equivalent no longer surprises me.   I own a Chinese oscilloscope that cost $400 and is equivalent in performance and quality to American or European equipment costing $1000 to $1500.  That they could sell for 1/3 the price amazed me, but a friend of mine who was the American rep for a Chinese electronics manufacturer explained it to me.  He said that in their main factory the workers lived in dorms and the factory ran 24 hours a day.  They are not being paid enough to have a house or apartment.  If they have any transportation it is a shared junk car or motor scooter.  But, many of those workers are satisfied.   Before that they had never had a hot shower in their life.  They hike in from 50 miles away to apply for jobs there.   

[Watcher]

I've always heard Ducati's are pretty unreliable and riddled with all kinds of gremlins

Commuted daily for about 10k miles on my monster with no major issues to report, so far.

[sledge]

Bad motorcycles?
Jawa, CZ and MZ.
The eastern European 2 stroke unholy trinity!

http://www.realclassic.co.uk/mz_ts250-1_supafive.html

[The Buddha]

A decent Lifan bike for 1/3 of Japanese equivalent no longer surprises me.   I own a Chinese oscilloscope that cost $400 and is equivalent in performance and quality to American or European equipment costing $1000 to $1500.  That they could sell for 1/3 the price amazed me, but a friend of mine who was the American rep for a Chinese electronics manufacturer explained it to me.  He said that in their main factory the workers lived in dorms and the factory ran 24 hours a day.  They are not being paid enough to have a house or apartment.  If they have any transportation it is a shared junk car or motor scooter.  But, many of those workers are satisfied.   Before that they had never had a hot shower in their life.  They hike in from 50 miles away to apply for jobs there.   

I am a little leery of Chinese "equivalent" nowadays. Don't own an oscilloscope, but I've got Chinese T shirts, yea they were cheap, but 2 months and 2-3 washes later, one of them is opening up a seam in my underarm. I have some 20yr old T shirts that look like crap but hold up well - get this, made I think in Bangladesh or Indonesia or Cambodia. Just not china.
My thought is, there is a part deep in there somewhere that will fail leaving you thinking ... why the Fruck did they not put in a little bit better stitch or bolt or part ... when its all done by machine anyway. LOL, so you have to buy another ...
Now no way around it in some cases, cos even the jap labeled stuff is actually Chinese. That's how jap companies even warranty them, the Chinese guys will give them the replacements free cos they warrantee it to the jap companies (which is just a Japanese shell for the Chinese one), and when the warranty runs out, you'd have to buy it from the Chinese people.
Cool.
Buddha.

[Suzuki Stevo]

Rickman...back in the 70's during my Dirt Bike Days, I had a friend with a Rickman dirt bike....it broke on a regular basis and Buzzkilled so many rides we finally had to tell the owner he wasn't welcome on any rides. On the bikes behalf...the owner was terrible with any kind of maintenance, Rickman's my be reliable? I was only around one...and it was always broken down.

[sledge]

I think they had Zundapp engines 

[barry905]

A users group like this one makes a huge difference in making a bike worth maintaining long term--it is effectively a large step up in the quality of the machine and the rewards of owning it.   And, it is just a lot more fun to have the community of knowledgeable users to swap information with than it is to be stuck trying to figure everything out all by yourself.  The reduction of the hassle factor and the enjoyment of discussing the issues with other owners make the ownership experience much better.

+1 for that thought - it also implies that the bike is a keeper - here would not be enthusiastic users if the bike was crap!