DRUG RAID At my School!!!!!

[CasiUSA]

Lockers are school property, and therefore the cops can search them. The students have NO RIGHT TO PRIVACY in lockers.

WRONG. If I am in my health club, unless I submit to some kind of waiver, no one has the right to go through my personal belongings without my consent if they have no reasonable cause. Secondly, it's as if I parked my car in a private lot. It does not make it subject to break ins and searches unless specified. Just because I have my things on another property does not make them free game.

Drug dogs through the class room, is also LEGAL. They are not searching the students or their bags, but if the dog smells something on a student, the police then have PROBABLE CAUSE to search that student's belongings

That is also debateable. Regardless of age, it does not entitle the kids to be subject to searches by the polica at all times. A search dog is called a search dog for a reason. Because it is SEARCHING through your things.

I think the cops were being pretty nice by giving them the box to put their drugs in in the first place. Where I went to school, you didnt get a box. If you had drugs, you go to jail.
Seems pretty fair to me.

Wow, those cops sure were swell and nice . THAT I attribute to the kids not knowing their rights. No one had to put anything in that box. Frankly, just because a cop says so doesn't make it the law.

I'm not arguing in defense of the guilty, I'm arguing in defense of the innocent kids who just go to school to get an education. Those kids should not be subject to search, and have to live in fear of the police. I mean, did everyone forget the constitution.

And I'm not childish, you're just a doo-doo head :nana:

[Zarathustra]

casi, ya know i agree with you in most things, but unforunately you are wrong in one thing.  school lockers are free to be searched at any time.  the thing with your health club example is that when you put your lock on it, it becomes your locker for the day.  at school, you use their locks, and they are their lockers, therefore, they are the schools private property, not yours.  therefore they can be opened at will.  i'm not exactly clear on the status of moving your stuff around in the locker for a search, or if they need plain view though, so that's kinda in the air.

as per the drug dog, you are right.  a cop needs reasonable suspicion to get a drug dog to search you.  reasonable suspicion comes from a "feeling" that something isn't right, they don't need probable cause for a drug dog.  a drug dog sniffing drugs then gives them probable cause which allows them to search.  therefore, their mass drug dog sniffing seems to me to be a violation of rights.  they may have had reasonable suspicion for some students at the school, maybe even probable cause if they had seen selling/using going on, however, this does not grant them reasonable suspicion on the whole of the student body.  the drug dogs were wrongly used.

as for you not arguing in defense of the guilty, well, i am.  if they were found accidentally through mass drug dog sniffings they were wrongfully searched, and therefore their drugs are innadmissable in court (if someone  wanted to make a big deal out of it).  unfortunately, they'll just get yelled at by their parents and probably pay the citation.  this is not a matter of me wanting law breakers to suceed, or get away with things, it's a matter of me wanting the law to be upheld, and searching illegaly does not cover that.

[CasiUSA]

as for you not arguing in defense of the guilty, well, i am. if they were found accidentally through mass drug dog sniffings they were wrongfully searched, and therefore their drugs are innadmissable in court

I agree 100%, I really meant to say that I wasn't advocating bringing drugs to school necessarily, but the real victims moreso the innocents who were violated  than the illegaly searched kids who were screwed over.

On a sidenote, I'd also like to say, that as much as I do appreciate the protection that the police provide our communities with, it is also necessary to keep them in check. I don't hate on ALL cops, I just hate the ones who abuse their power and bully people around because they are too lazy to go about proper protocol under our legal system.

[richard]

I agree. there are a lot of corrupt law enforcement out there... it's a sad fact that just because they are trained and put on the badge, they don't become any more than human, but being only human some feel that the badge *makes* them more than human and raises them above other people.

The point with the box is valid... you are right.  they were under no obligation at all to put anything in the box.  In fact, it's entirely possible that had nobody put anything in the box, they wouldn't have brought the students out of the classroom.

So it's a double-edged sword.

They were kind, sortof.  Generally, anyone who has illegal drugs in their posetion goes to jail.  so providing a way out is a mercy...  unless nobody takes it at all.  Once someone has taken it, it is now reasonable to assume that if some of the students had drugs, some of the others might also have drugs.  Had nobody put anything illegal in the box, they probably couldn't have brought in the dogs.

Then once they had reasonable cause, the dogs will find any drugs that are around.

Searching vehicles... they could take drug dogs around it, I'm sure... I can't see how that could be illegal.  now, if the dog didn't detect anything inside, it's certainly not legal for them to search the car.  unless they were searching the cars belonging to those who they had found drugs on?

and the lockers, as others have mentioned, are searched and/or checked by school administration all the time.  School lockers are property of the school, not rented or lent out, and anything you keep in there is subject to being looked in at.  I'm pretty sure they couldn't actually search a bag w/out your consent or a warrant (probably cause), but that doesn't stop them from taking dogs down the line to find them.

Anyway, all things considered, it doesn't sound like the police were too overly zealous.  They could have been a lot meaner to a lot of kids, but it sounds to me like the goal was to discourage kids from having drugs in school.  It's probably not quite the way I'd do it, but I don't know that I have a better idea either, so I'm not going to criticize them.

If you are so angry at their behavior, then what is your solution to the problem?  Allow kids to have drugs in schools?  I don't want my kids to have to deal with that.  not even just coming across the drugs... a lot of kids when they are on drugs get mean.

just my $0.02

[CasiUSA]

If you are so angry at their behavior, then what is your solution to the problem? Allow kids to have drugs in schools? I don't want my kids to have to deal with that. not even just coming across the drugs... a lot of kids when they are on drugs get mean.

My solution would be for parents to take friggin control of their kids.
Parents have know what's going on in their child's life. I can argue this as an only child of two full time working parents. They were always involved in my life, and when I strayed from right, they were on my back about it. This kept me out of trouble. I have no problems with harsh punishments for repeated delinquents, no one wants drug infested schools. My qualm lies in the enforcement of these policies, it is twofold:

The police are not some kind of marshall law. They must abide by protocol, or the whole system falls apart, and we end up living in fear of authority.  The school does have an obligation to keep kids in a safe environment, but at the same time, keep them from having their privacy violated.

Take this terrorism situation for example. No one wants terrorists running around, but the government should not be knocking down everyone's door forcing them to submit to searches. We don't live in a police state, and we shouldn't subject our kids to that. There is a very fine median between safety and liberty.

[richard]

Stick to the topic at hand, casi...  you oviously have had some other experiences that have set your teeth on edge dealing with cops, but those aren't the issue we are even talking about.  Don't rant about cops knocking people's doors in when what we are talking about had nothing to do with that.

They may have been less polite than I'd like, but I don't know that I can blame them for that.  Other than that, I have yet to see (other than the cell phone question) anything that they did that deviated from "protocol" at all.  Yes, there are other cases where that has happened... but you are blowing this one way out of proportion.  Calm down a bit.

That said, I think you have an excelent point.  Parents certainly should be controlling their kids.  Any parent who was keeping an eye on their kids well enough at that school didn't have anything to worry about, since their child didn't have drugs.  kudos to them.

What does that say about the parents of the kids with drugs?  Some don't pay enough attention.  some don't care.  Some may have even given the kids the drugs ( :x    :guns: ).  In a perfect world, all parents would take the same level of responsibility that your parents, and mine, took.  We'd all be happier.

As soon as you come up with a way to do this, we can let all the law enforcement officers go home, stop risking their lives fighting crime (you *did* know that when they aren't searching schools, many of those cops get shot at by the guys who sold those kids the drugs, right?), and spend more time with their families.

Until then, lets do everything we can to make sure that the cops who let power go to their heads are stopped, but try to remember that someone has got to stop these things, and it's not always just the power trip you're inclined to make it.

[Zarathustra]

rich, i don't think casi was necesarilly putting his tin foil cap on and saying we will live ina police state, or that's how it is; he was pointing out the analogy of randomly searching a classroom full of kids to randomly knocking on doors and searching houses.  he wasn't blowing it out of proportion, he was drawing a parallel.  

anyway, in your previous writting, i disagree.  telling kids in a class to put drugs in a box, not seeing who did it, and having no idea if they all came from one kid does not give them reasonable suspicion to search a whole room full of kids.  you say that since one of the kids put drugs in the box, it is therefore reasonable to assume that more of the kids have drugs; exactly what kind of logic is that?  i believe we call that logic typecasting, and profiling.  if you're in a mall, and someone in the store is caught smoking a joint, should everyone in the whole mall, including yourself, be subjected to a search?  oh, and possession of illegal drugs does not send you directly to jail, generally for pot at least it's just a citation.

as for searching vehicles, they need a reason to bring drug dogs in.  a drug dog is a search, therefore a cop can't just walk his dog around every single car he pulls over just cause he wants to.  that's against the law.

i'm all fine and dandy with the idea of discouraging drug use in kids, that's fine, go ahead and discourge.  but, i draw the line at encroaching upon their rights.  they're kids, not criminals, and not animals.  hell, they're not even kids, they're highschoolers.  highschoolers, while not being the brighetest age group generally, still hav esome cognitive power.  it doesn't matter how many times you "discourage", they'll still make up their own mind and do what they think is right.  so discourage with active conversation, thoughtful manners, and facts; not with grey area legal shows of force.  that's pathetic.

you don't want your kids to have to deal with drugs in school?  i'm sorry man, but drugs are in schools, drugs are at work, drugs are at the mall, drugs are everywhere.  you can't shelter your kid, and you shouldn't want to.  sheltering is what leads to mistakes.  teach your kid, and respect what he says, don't just tell him right and wrong (your opinion), tell him what you think, ask what he thinks, and discuss.

as for getting mean on drugs, where the hell does this come from?  highschoolers are all mean.  they're 15-18, cliquey, smartass, punks.  drugs don't make people mean, mean people take drugs and are still mean, just like nice people can take drugs and be nice.  i dunno about you but i don't see a lot of mean hippies around...

[Zarathustra]

i don't mean to be getting real down on you rich, we just obviously really disagree aobut things in this area.  disagreeing is fine though, i'm not looking to start a war here, and i don't want this to get personal, i just rather strongly believe in due process and civil liberties, and don't enjoy people having those encroached upon.  even if a kid has drugs on him, a cop cannot search him and say what a hero he is for finding drugs if it was not based upon the law and protocol.  it's illegal, and that's the way it should be.  so, no hard feelings man, i just really dislike power misuse.  if you were in town i'd take you out for a beer and we could dicuss this better.  

[CasiUSA]

:guns:  I say we settle this with a death match. One ring, 3 minutes, winner gets a cookie  

[fmikex]

hey your right teenagers will be teenagers, they want to do what they want to do , so let them do whatever they want. there are drugs everywhere so lets just do nothing to stop people from destroying there lives and others.its funny they took away the parents right to discipline there kids and the kids went to hell, there little punks (not all of coarse) why? because they do not have the experiences that tell them that there are real consequences to the things they do in life, for ever action there is a reaction. nothing we do happens without effect. the kids will get over it but they will realize that selling and doing drugs is not accepted or ignored.and that they could get caught. look i am a gun owner and i hate the idea of anybody walking in my house and saying ok you got 10 min to put all you guns in this box and we will not arrest you for having them. but if i brought it into burger king and started pointing it at people i would exspect someone to do something about it. the fact is school is a public place and people pay good money (taxes) to have there kids taught there and they shouldn't have to worry about the kid coming home a crack head.
kids don't have all the right adults do, they can't drink they can't drive(till 16) they can't vote, yadda yada yadda.why? because they have not lived long enough to understand the negative consequences doing these things irresponsibly can cause. the fact is kids need to be protected from others and themselves till there expieriences in life teach them different. it sucks that the good kids have to go though this crap but thats what crime does to the innocent, they are loseing there freedom and there rights because drug dealers and punks want to take the easy and corrupt way though life. and untill they start wearing name tags that say "i sell drugs" then we all are at risk of losing out rights.

[john]

This Sunday.  Two men enter.  One man leaves.

The cage match of the century: CasiCUA vs. Zarathustra

Only on pay-or-view.

[Afterburner]

First, DRUGS SHOULD NOT BE ILLEGAL.  Making them illegal makes good people criminals and it makes the real criminals rich.  Drug laws are stupid laws and have never worked.

Second, NO ONE SHOULD USE DRUGS.  They are bad for you.

Third, TOUGH ENFORCEMENT OF STUPID LAWS BREEDS CONTEMPT FOR THE LAW AND FEAR AND HATRED TOWARD THE ENFORCERS.  We want to like and respect our LEOs, and stuff like this does not help.

There.  Getting off my soap box now.

Oh, one more thing.  Cell phones?  puhleeez!

[Zarathustra]

fmikex i believe i stated, or at least casi stated, that parents should be the ones to make sure their kids don't do drugs.  don't shelter your kid (as i said), but talk to them about it and take charge yourself.  if your kid is in highschool, and he's not smart enough to make a rational decision about drugs, you did a bad job of parenting.  straight up, no pulled punches, that's how it is.  if at 16+ your kid doesn't know your views on drugs, their views on drugs, and why you/they have those views, you messed up.  16 year old kids, while cocky and at sometimes bewildering, are not stupid.  yeah, they're punks (almost all), but that doesn't mean they don't listen or think about things.  i was a dumb punk in highschool, and i clearly knew what my parents thought about drugs, i knew my view on drugs, and i knew my friends did certain drugs.  that didn't make me do them however.  if i had been sheltered and never talked about it though; who's to say if i wouldn't have started smoking pot by the age of 15.  it is nor for the cops to teach consequences, the only consequence they teach is that of discomfort (jail).  they don't teach why.  and they why of not doing drugs is the important one.  i for one never have and never will accept someone's opinion on things as a concrete reason why i shouldn't do something.  but, if they can back up with reason why i shouldn't, then i'll think about it.  so for someone to say (like these cops), "if found with drugs, you're going to jail son."  all that does is teach me that our current givernmental system has a problem with drugs, not that i shouldn't be doing them.  get my point?

secondly, your arguement about burger king is recockulous.  "if you were pointing it at people you would expect them to do something about it."  well no kidding professor, of course you would; you're in the act of assault with a deadly weapon.  that is way different, and by way different i mean way-farkin-different, than a kid having a joint in his bag enjoying his history lecture and planning to unwind a bit with his buddies after a hard day.  if you can draw a connection to that i defy you to write it here.

and while true, that kids don't have all the rights of adults, they still have the right to not be unlawfully searched.  and these innocent kids were.  you're saying that crime takes away rights from the innocent is the most worthless crap i've ever heard.  the constitution and bill of rights no where says (point it out to me differently if you care, right after your burger king analogy is finished), "these rights shall be bestowed upon all citizens, unless there is any crime taking place, then they shall be trampeled on and dismissed."  where the hell is that clause?  the innocent should never lose their rights, that's what due process means.  that's what keeps our system working, rights should not be thrown out the window just because crime is taking place.  you're right, they are being tossed away in situations like these, but you talk as if that's perfectly acceptable; and that in my opinion is the biggest travesty to be involved in this conversation or event.  that you advocate the dismissal of rights because there are some criminals walking amongst us.  not to get rich on my back or anything, or to say i'm agreeing with secret police future theory, but if you ever get in charge of this country i better throw on my tin foil hat, triple bolt my doors, hide in the attic, and wait for the ss to take my family away because some kid on the corner, who we don't know, was smoking some pot.  (yeah, overbearing, but you get the point.)

[Zarathustra]

oh man john and casi, i'm not normally a fighter...  but if there's a cookie as a prize, i'm gonna lay some hurt down.  

[jake42]

can we say "odds and ends" kids.

there.

I knew you could do it.

[Zarathustra]

jake no one was aware this was going to end up around 3 pages, and forgive me if i'm wrong, but i didn't know one article sitting on the page designed "... to discuss... any other topic you would like.." would take a little part of your soul from you.  and in my defese, last time i checked the board 'odd's and ends' wasn't even here. so nay nay nay.  :nana:

[Zarathustra]

or nya nya nay, whatever it should be.  (i'm out of the loop on spelling my 6th grade taunts).  

[fmikex]

well now zara first you act as if the only drug is pot. i have met teens that sell crack and you know what ?crack kills just like a gun.selling it to teens (who from the crack smoking teens i have met smoked it because of the  pressure to fit in and be accepted) is putting there life in danger and others.drug dealers have gangs,gangs have wars and people die.that was my point about Burger King.people die because of drugs even kids shot because of a couple of drug dealers were having a shootout outside the kids home.
and from what i read most kids were not physically searched i'm not sure it said any were.in the high school here the kids walk through metal detectors and have to have see through back packs just to get into the school doors. and you know if this was a perfect world moms and dads all around the world would raise little angels that never did any wrong,but its not.i know moms and dads that have taught there kids how to steal from stores and hang out with them and there teenage friends and get drunk and high.i seen a whole family grandma included passing a joint around the living room.if it was left up to there moms and dads to do it there would be little done, some people are even  accused of abuse for spanking there kids. sometimes mom and dads hands are tied. and how you raise your kids has nothing to do with there I.Q. some people are just dumb, some just don't care, others will do things just because there told they can't. or to get attention.
and if you don't think crime is taking away your freedom then try getting on an airplane,or just go shopping, i mean just look around at all the video cameras, security devices and road blocks. there are jobs that the bosses put in video cameras in the bathrooms to make sure the employees weren't stealing from them. you don't even have the freedom to pee in private. and its not the good people that cause this its the criminals
i mean if you think your "free" because this is the U.S.A. your nuts! try not paying your taxes for a few years try walking into a police station and sparking up a bowl. they will arrest you and smoke the pot themselves. your not really free to do what you want only free to do what they(the government) will let you do. i never said i wanted it to be this way it just is.its the lawbreakers that give the cops there power. you think things are going to keep going the way they are and your going to keep your rights? HA! not a chance.there are people everyday out there trying to change the constitution or make laws so you have to live life buy there viewpoint of what right and wrong.i don't want to have to live buy others standerds but i also don't want the world to go to sh#! because we pussyfooted around worried about the criminals rights. your right the innocent should not lose there rights but the fact is...they are! i don't like it i am sure you zara don't like it but it is happening. soon the U.S. goverment will know every thing you buy who you bought it from and how much you paid and what time you got it right down to the last second. its only a matter of time before money as you know it is gone and everthing will be done with cards and computers and your every financial move will be documented. get use to the idea because its in the works and its because of crime

[The Buddha]

Woweee.. I didn't read any of the last 2 pages... BUt this is what I think...
There were no drugs found on the GS twinners here and we are all are now debating goverenment... (OK OK I just scrolled down and happened to read a few words here and there) ... and you call your self bikers... Like Walther Matthau would have said in grumpier old men.... "putts".
Cool.
Srinath.

[jake42]

rock on srinath.